Mixed Blood


There was a time in America when race mixing was looked down upon and those that engaged in it risked being shunned from mainstream society. Now inter-racial dating and mixed raced children are such a common part of our society that we have a half Black African/half White President in the oval office. Some are enthralled by the possibility of a future America where everyone is mixed. Others aren’t. For many Americans marrying and having children within your race is still considered an expected and normal practice.

For the record, both my children are mixed Asian/Caucasian, so it doesn’t really need to be said that I’m not all that opposed to race mixing. At the same time I can understand others’ desire to marry and date within their own race. Maybe it’s for ideological reasons or maybe simply sexual preference, but I realize that the majority still choose those that look like them when it comes to relationships and especially procreation.

It’s currently estimated that 6.1 million people or 2 percent of America’s population is mixed race, though that number is definitely higher if you take into account many with small admixture that they don’t identify with or know about. Without a doubt, America will become more mixed as social restraints against inter-racial relationships become increasingly relaxed. What will this mean for this country? Some suggest it will lead to it’s inevitable downfall, but is that really the case?

What if there never were any social taboos against miscegenation and Blacks had been completely absorbed into the larger White gene pool? Wouldn’t that have prevented many of the social problems that America faced during the past century? Or would it have robbed America of the Black experience that has been a major part of shaping this country’s history? Just imagine a nation that was mostly White and instead of a Black minority there were Whites that were partially Black that looked like Rashida Jones.

Okay, I realize that it seems like I’m propagandizing for the cause of a mixed race America. I’m really just trying to paint an alternate picture of what it could have been if race mixing had always been the norm. Some may point out the dysgenic effects for Whites if they had reproduced with Blacks, but from the Black perspective, it always seems to be eugenic. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed adopted Black, White and mixed race children up to the age of 17. While they found that the environment didn’t change the IQ gap between Whites and Blacks, it did show that half Black/White children had an IQ midway between the two groups. Other older studies have shown that quadroons have a median IQ between mulattoes and Whites. Maybe the solution to Africa’s problems is mass immigration of Chinese males to the continent who then take African wives as this would help raise their low IQs.

Being a lover of anthropology, I’ve felt a sense of loss at the destruction of genetically distinct peoples, so these ideas I’m proposing are somewhat facetious, but I’ve been questioning the concept of racial preservation recently. In a discussion with my father about this subject, I brought up the Khoisan peoples, whose numbers have been dwindling for centuries as they’ve been absorbed into the numerically superior Bantu tribes. They’re the oldest known people to still walk the earth and I felt that they needed to be protected. My father gave such a simple response that made my posturing seem silly. He said, “They’re humans, not animals. We can’t put them in the zoo or keep them from breeding with other people. Why would you care if they existed still? So you could watch them on TV or look at them in magazines?” I really had no good answer. Do the Khoisan people need to exist as a distinct people or is it enough to just have their genes live on through others?

With the recent confirmation that Eurasians are part Neanderthal, we can see this question playing out. Anthropologist, John Hawks, declared the discovery to be a great day for Neanderthals, since no longer are they extinct, but live on through us. In a sense he’s right. Parts of their genome do live and continue to spread through modern peoples. We are their descendants. At the same time, there are no real Neaderthals alive today. Scientists have often wondered what the world would be like if they did still exist. How would have they contributed to our history? Where would they fit into our modern society? Would they fit at all or just be a cause of constant social strife? Maybe the world has been better off with their disappearance as a unique people. It’s hard to say.

Since no human races sprang from the ground in pre-made form, it’s misleading to talk about races being pure. All peoples are amalgamations of more ancient peoples that came before us. Though some peoples, through genetic isolation, have stabilized into unique groups, mixing with others has been the natural course for humans throughout our existence. The more important question than whether or not we should mix is what loss would that mixture bring? Would society suffer if all Blacks were quadroons and octaroons? Or a better question might be, would our society survive if all Whites were quadroons and octaroons?

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145 thoughts on “Mixed Blood

  1. A very thoughtful article. 🙂

    I’m sure my responses will be predictable but here we go:

    “Without a doubt, America will become more mixed as social restraints against inter-racial relationships become increasingly relaxed. What will this mean for this country? Some suggest it will lead to it’s inevitable downfall, but is that really the case?”

    Don’t know, it’s really hard to say. Perhaps it’s better to say that changing the racial makeup of the country will guarantee that the nation will change, for better or worse. Most likely fracture, for I don’t think there’s any guarantee that a racially-mixed America will remain united, as it sense of identification with the original United States will be shaky, or that the other races will completely melt. Probably only whites; blacks/Latinos/Asians will probably still exist, since there’s a stronger sense of racial preservation amongst them.

    “What if there never were any social taboos against miscegenation and Blacks had been completely absorbed into the larger White gene pool? Wouldn’t that have prevented many of the social problems that America faced during the past century? Or would it have robbed America of the Black experience that has been a major part of shaping this country’s history?”

    I’ve thought about this myself, and yes, if blacks were absorbed in the early days of American history, the white gene pool would probably have remained intact. That’s certainly not the case anymore. But I personally don’t want that. I think American blacks have a unique history/identity and I don’t see eugenic ethnic cleansing as the only answer. I realize this leads me into your debate with your dad over the Khoisans.

    “They’re humans, not animals. We can’t put them in the zoo or keep them from breeding with other people. Why would you care if they existed still? So you could watch them on TV or look at them in magazines?”

    With all due respect to your father, that’s not really a great response. Wanting to see human tribes preserved does not mean locking them up in zoos. It’s perfectly fine to want to protect the diversity of the human gene pool, the more diverse we are, the more likely the human race won’t get wiped out by a plague (I remember learning about how cheetahs were almost wiped out by a disease, but enough genetic variation in the species made it so that certain branches survived). For a less biological reason, it’s also moral to want to see different nations preserved. It’s not for selfish reasons; I don’t look at the national geographic, yet I still want to see the Tibetans, Uighurs, and Khoisans continuing to exist.

    However, the only thing that can be done about it is for enough strong-willed people within said nation to take actions. None of us can do anything about the Khoisan, it will take initiative on their part. Same for us whites. We are the only ones that can stop our own extinction.

    “How would have they contributed to our history? Where would they fit into our modern society? Would they fit at all or just be a cause of constant social strife? Maybe the world has been better off with their disappearance as a unique people. It’s hard to say.”

    Doubtful. The world has seen plenty of misery even with only homo sapiens sapiens being the only species of human. Yes there probably would be war between humans and Neanderthals, (perhaps with humans being more united against a common enemy), but I suspect that the wars would not have been any more intense than WWII. Just more of the same strife, which is part of the reality of the human experience.

    “The more important question than whether or not we should mix is what loss would that mixture bring? Would society suffer if all Blacks were quadroons and octaroons? Or a better question might be, would our society survive if all Whites were quadroons and octaroons?”

    Again, it will probably survive, it will just be something very different from what we have today. Strife will never be erased from the scene, and I think American nationalism will be difficult to maintain, since the “new Americans” will have less connections to the founding population, and new identities will no doubt emerge. Not necessarily a bad thing, the formation of new peoples isn’t something to be feared. I just hope there’s a future for Euro-Americans who want to continue existing as a people.

  2. A second thought: yes it’s true that it’s been a part of human history to mix. But if you look at the big picture, what do you see? You see a growing tree of life; you see species of organisms splintering and branching off into different subspecies, which eventually evolve into new species. We didn’t get to where we are today solely through mixing: evolution and genetic isolation are the things that are responsible for our rich world. If such things didn’t happen, then we’d still be single cell organisms swimming in a primordial stew.

    The destruction of a species, whether through violence or outbreeding, is more accidental, rather than part of the “natural” way of thing. Every unique population does what it can to survive, but they will go extinct if they fail. I suppose having a genetic remnant is a consolation prize, but it’s still a done deal. Perhaps Neanderthals were doomed to extinction due to weaker genes, just as whites may been doomed to extinction due to weaker genes, and thus our fate is sealed. But we don’t know for sure, and thus I continue the fight.

  3. Even though I’m a mixed Asian/Caucasian myself, I can tell you that all types of race mixing are not equal.

    No one wants to become more black – that’s why black women are at the bottom of the totem pole in the dating world. LOL, Rashida Jones is a really bad example – her mother is white and her father (Quincy) is part white, also.

    I’ve thought about this myself, and yes, if blacks were absorbed in the early days of American history, the white gene pool would probably have remained intact.

    Yes, but the US would have developed in a way much more reminiscent of Brazil, based on the abilities of its people.

    For white women race mixing still is fairly rare in the US. Despite what some people think, the most common unions (by far) between white and non-whites is White Male with Asian Female, followed by White Male with Hispanic Female.

    The difference is that these unions just don’t catch your eye when these folks are walking through the grocery store, but when you see Tyrone with Katie and their two mulatto kids you tend to notice.

  4. “Yes, but the US would have developed in a way much more reminiscent of Brazil, based on the abilities of its people.”

    Not sure about that one. From my understand, Brazil has a much higher degree of African genes than pre-1965 America. They would have been more heavily diluted.

    “Despite what some people think, the most common unions (by far) between white and non-whites is White Male with Asian Female, followed by White Male with Hispanic Female.”

    Out here in Iowa, the most common interracial couple I see is WF/BM. Maybe it’s a regional thing. From my understanding, the WM/AF pairing is definitely more common out along the coasts, especially Manhattan.

    “The difference is that these unions just don’t catch your eye when these folks are walking through the grocery store, but when you see Tyrone with Katie and their two mulatto kids you tend to notice.”

    White/Asian couples attract my notice as much as White/Black couples. To me, White-Asian kids stand out just as much as White/Black kids.

  5. “I can tell you that all types of race mixing are not equal.”

    I do agree with this. If races have particular attributes, than it stands to reason that race-mixing will produce differing results. One scenario I’ve wondered is that the new tribes that would emerge from global race-mixing would be people of different racial-hybrid backgrounds (mulattos vs Eurasians as an example).

  6. Not sure about that one. From my understand, Brazil has a much higher degree of African genes than pre-1965 America. They would have been more heavily diluted.

    “Dilution” would not have accomplished anything positive, as far as I can tell. Class issues still would have been a major impediment, short of taking the drastic measure of having every black female sterilized.

    Until the huge influx of additional Europeans in the early 20th century, blacks were a higher percentage of the US population than they are now – as high as 20% overall in the US but consistently above 30-50% or more in the South.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

    Even today, South Carolina and Mississippi are 30% black and Georgia and North Carolina are not far behind. Some have even argued that the mass migration of blacks to the North after 1940 actually helped Southern economies quite a bit, and this is a part of the modernization that has since occurred in the South.

    Even if the “one-drop rule” never existed, a large degree of admixture with African genes would have been very detrimental to the development of areas wherever blacks lived. I guess places like Vermont or Boston would have been largely unaffected.

    Population is yet another reason why many Southerners did not support emancipation – they feared the sheer numbers of free blacks with a likely grudge against the white population.

  7. None of us can do anything about the Khoisan, it will take initiative on their part. Same for us whites. We are the only ones that can stop our own extinction.

    That’s the basic point that my father was making. He made me realize that my attitude towards them was patronizing in the same way that liberals believe it’s their duty to interfere in the lives of others. It’ll be their choice if they want to remain distinct as a people. There’s nothing really we can do about it, except maybe encourage their sense of ethnic and racial pride as you try to do with Whites.

    I think American nationalism will be difficult to maintain, since the “new Americans” will have less connections to the founding population, and new identities will no doubt emerge.

    Wouldn’t the fact that people had White blood make them more likely to feel connected with the history of the country? My children are half Asian, but I strongly encourage them to feel proud of both their Thai and White heritage. I recognize that’s not the trend in this country though. My son especially has a hard time with this, since he looks more White than Asian, unlike his sister who looks more Asian, and is made to feel that he can’t be proud of his White heritage at school. I never really mentioned this before, but the fact that my children are mixed is a big part of the reason that I feel so strongly about trying to restore a sense of ethnic pride for Whites. It bothers me to see my children being browbeaten to be ashamed of who they are.

  8. LOL, Rashida Jones is a really bad example – her mother is white and her father (Quincy) is part white, also.

    That’s why I chose her. I was trying to paint a scenario where Blacks basically became White in appearance through so much intermixing. I know she’s probably only a quarter Black at the most.

    Until the huge influx of additional Europeans in the early 20th century, blacks were a higher percentage of the US population than they are now – as high as 20% overall in the US but consistently above 30-50% or more in the South.

    That’s a good point. If Blacks did mix with Whites, then the country would’ve been split between a mixed creole south and a European north. I was thinking about the overall percentage of Blacks in the entire country, but I didn’t take into account the fact that their weren’t enough Whites in the South to fully absorb the Black population.

  9. Camlost, good point about pre-1900’s demographics. I’ve always thought that blacks were always roughly 10 percent of the population. Didn’t realize it was 20-30 in the South.

    “Wouldn’t the fact that people had White blood make them more likely to feel connected with the history of the country? My children are half Asian, but I strongly encourage them to feel proud of both their Thai and White heritage. I recognize that’s not the trend in this country though.”

    It’s a matter of dilution. If there’s enough white genes, then yes, they may feel a connection. But sub-replacement birth rates guarantee that those white genes will gradually shrink, and with the growing non-white genes, you’ll probably have a genepool in 2100 that’s only 20-30% European, if that. I don’t think the post-racial America will identify much with the European USA.

    And yes, you have a good point about the demonization of white heritage. I don’t blame your son for wanting to ignore his European side, it’ll mean he gets to avoid the demonization and self-loathing. He’ll probably be happier as a result, thinking himself a part of an innocent non-white minority, or being post-racial.

  10. Sagat, I now understand what you’re father was trying to say, although it sounded like he was objecting to your mere objection to Khoisan extinction. There are plenty of people who have an attitude that we should be indifferent to such things; my father tends to lean in that direction.

  11. I don’t blame your son for wanting to ignore his European side, it’ll mean he gets to avoid the demonization and self-loathing. He’ll probably be happier as a result, thinking himself a part of an innocent non-white minority, or being post-racial.

    It’d be easier for him to ignore his White side if he didn’t look so White. He gets picked on at school by the Blacks and Mexicans who call him, “White boy” and they make fun of the way he speaks, saying he “talks White”. Even though he tells them that he’s half Thai, they don’t care. They see his light skin and that’s all that matters to them. I always tell him that they’re only insulting themselves, because only an imbecile would find fault in speaking articulately. He took that to heart and responded to their taunts by saying, “Oh, you mean I sound like I’m smart. Thanks.” But that only pissed them off more and got him into a fist fight.

    My son is becoming increasingly racist and I’m a bit worried about the direction he’ll take. I let him read some articles about race and IQ, but that might’ve been a mistake. He’s constantly talking about the “peanut heads” that bother him at school now.

    His sister, being darker skinned, has been accepted openly by Blacks, especially Black boys, which is a whole other problem that I have to worry about. The trials and tribulations of raising mixed raced kids. Maybe, I’ll make another post about that.

  12. Faith Evans is a much better example of what you get when you cross whites and blacks. Although she’s got a good voice I don’t find her physically attractive in the least…. the beauty gap continues.

  13. Sagat,

    I can understand what your son is going through in terms of becoming aware of race and being at a crossroads about how to go about it. Along my journey, I’ve had several temptations (and sometimes nearly succumbed) towards taking the ugly path of race realism. It seems like the easy way out, and like your son, anger played an initial role in my intellectual development. Like your son, I was also tormented in school in regards to race. I was taught to hate myself for being a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed male, and it’s scarred me ever since. Trying to turn towards positive nationalism has been difficult with such emotional scars, but I think having non-white friends has helped steer me away from that.

    Does your son identify with his white side? Or does he embrace both his Thai and European heritage and look upon Blacks and Latinos with contempt? Regardless, if he was willing, I’d be more than happy to talk to him, and present the case for positive racial thinking, although after locking horns with anti-Semites for a year, I’ve come to realize that there’s not much we can do, other than let people see the ugliness for themselves and reject it. That’s pretty much what I had to do.

  14. Well, as a military baby who grew up half white/half Japanese in the Southern US I can give some advice – if your kids are feeling like they don’t fit in that is a passing fit that will end when they mature and get to college. Growing up in a small military town I knew more than two dozen other kids in school in the same boat – the product of a white military father and mother who is Thai, Korean, Japanese, Filipino or Vietnamese.

    However, I would be careful to make sure that your kids don’t try to identify with (or emulate) blacks or Mexicans if they are going through any “rebellious” phases – not much good can come out of associating with their largely unparented and mannerless progeny.

    My experience may differ from your kids’ since it is my mother (and not father) who is Japanese.

    My experience may also differ since I look 100% white, kind of like the former NBA player Rex Walters who is also white/Japanese mixed:

  15. John,

    My son kind of overplays his Thai side now, which I realize is a response to the attacks on him. He has pretty much negative feelings towards Blacks and Hispanics. Unlike me, he didn’t have much interaction with them as a kid and he went to private school for most of his life until middle school, so the few that he did know were well behaved and intelligent. That was part of the reason that I took him out of private school. He was on his way to becoming a hopeless liberal if I kept him in that school so I moved him out. I didn’t realize how bad the culture shock would be for him though. I especially misjudged how he would be treated by Blacks and Latinos. My daughter has always gone to public school(different mother, long story) and she gets along well with other minorities. My son is extremely proper in his speech and mannerisms and he didn’t play well with the ghetto kids. I wrongly thought that his Thai background would help shield him from the abuse, but I guess I expected too much out of his low IQ classmates who don’t even know where Thailand is.

    I appreciate the offer to talk to him, but thats going a bit too far in mixing up my online world and the real world. I rarely even mentioned my kids on other blogs, because I was worried that some might attack the fact that they’re mixed and make things personal for me. If you know of a good article I could pass along to him though, that would be cool.

  16. Sagat, John M, Camlost, et.al,

    Interesting and engaging post; and ditto for many of the comments. Since most of you are somewhat familiar with my views, I, too, would probably be redundant in providing a complete reaction to the post, but to me this quote from Sagat’s conclusion really summed things up for me and my general philosophy on these issues, however predictable:

    “Since no human races sprang from the ground in pre-made form, it’s misleading to talk about races being pure. All peoples are amalgamations of more ancient peoples that came before us. Though some peoples, through genetic isolation, have stabilized into unique groups, mixing with others has been the natural course for humans throughout our existence. The more important question than whether or not we should mix is what loss would that mixture bring?”

    That passage reminded me of earlier conversations i’ve had with john mcneill here and at GW; they make me realize that there’s no real way to be ‘neutral’ on this issue: while i certainly don’t ‘promote’ biracialism, or disparage those who are monoracial and/or monoethnic, i’m not at all threatened or disturbed by ethinc and racial hybridization—– though (and this is the part that these discussions made me realize) I in fact WOULD be disturbed if the distinctly Western-European aspect of America’s demographic and character was greatly reduced or disturbed; racial cant and defensiveness aside, it is simply invaluable to the country’s history and future being. Something about the white-west-European’s mix of enlightment-driven values and ideals, combined with its scientific detachment and objective equipoise is sublime and what is responsibile for both its technological mastery and its civilizing influence on its own and other cultures. That, I realize, is not a common view emanating from the multicultural left —– of which, i’m somewhat consigned to solely by genetics. But that indeed is what I sincerely believe —–and reflexively so, to the point of it feeling like ‘common sense.’

    A few other comments, reactions, etc.:

    re. “The destruction of a species, whether through violence or outbreeding, is more accidental, rather than part of the “natural” way of thing. “

    Interesting perspective; in truth, I, too, would instinctively take the opposite, more established view —— but i can’t really argue with your logic and perspective here; maybe the scary truth is that species and cultures can perish in both natural and unnatural ways, as we’re ever so existentially frail, etc.

    re. “No one wants to become more black – that’s why black women are at the bottom of the totem pole in the dating world. LOL, Rashida Jones is a really bad example – her mother is white and her father (Quincy) is part white, also.”

    I don’t know about that; maybe it’s just a result of my anecdotal day-to-day, but in the public schools, which are about 60% black, i see white boys feigning urban ‘blackness’ on an embarassingly wide scale; perhaps this isn’t exactly what you meant, but it’s really weird to me and contrary to my ‘black-kid-in-the-suburbs’ upbringing to see the tables turned, so to speak, and so many white kids deploying that ridiculous pseudo urban-black dialect. This, I presume you all realize, is not a healthy or inspiring development imho.

  17. However, I would be careful to make sure that your kids don’t try to identify with (or emulate) blacks or Mexicans if they are going through any “rebellious” phases – not much good can come out of associating with their largely unparented and mannerless progeny.

    This is the problem I have with my daughter. She's picked up a lot of ghetto speech and I actually though it was funny when she was a little kid, since I grew up in the ghetto myself, but now that she's older, I'm weary of who she associates with.

    My experience may also differ since I look 100% white

    Though I can see the Thai side to my son’s face, he has light skin and light brown hair and hazel eyes. Other Asians always seem to notice that he’s mixed, but most others just see him as White. He kind of resembles a younger Johnny Damon, who is also half Thai.

  18. I in fact WOULD be disturbed if the distinctly Western-European aspect of America’s demographic and character was greatly reduced or disturbed; racial cant and defensiveness aside, it is simply invaluable to the country’s history and future being. Something about the white-west-European’s mix of enlightment-driven values and ideals, combined with its scientific detachment and objective equipoise is sublime and what is responsibile for both its technological mastery and its civilizing influence on its own and other cultures.

    Wow, Nik. I am actually surprised at that comment. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you so explicitly champion the White race and culture before. You almost come across like a White nationalist there. 😛

  19. i see white boys feigning urban ‘blackness’ on an embarassingly wide scale; perhaps this isn’t exactly what you meant, but it’s really weird to me and contrary to my ‘black-kid-in-the-suburbs’ upbringing to see the tables turned, so to speak, and so many white kids deploying that ridiculous pseudo urban-black dialect. This, I presume you all realize, is not a healthy or inspiring development imho.

    @ Nickrit

    Yes, you do see a lot of white males picking up black speech patterns and becoming big fans of Hip Hop. They generally outgrow that in their 20’s as their leave that “rebellious” stage.

    However, even amongst this wigger population the white boys still aren’t selecting black women as mates, and/or having children with them.

    Eminem is the biggest wigger to ever walk the earth, and he’s always with white women. (except for his claim to have dated Mariah Carey for a shot time)

  20. john mcneill says,
    “Like your son, I was also tormented in school in regards to race. I was taught to hate myself for being a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed male, and it’s scarred me ever since. Trying to turn towards positive nationalism has been difficult with such emotional scars, but I think having non-white friends has helped steer me away from that. “

    I’ve heard you reflect upon this period of your life in previous threads; it’s easily understandable why this was traumatic —— but it’s almost surreal to me in how much it’s an inversion of my own personal experience, being black biracial in a setting of an anxious white suburb within five miles of a big city ‘slum.’ some of my most intense personal emotions from childhood stem from feeling the guilt of wanting to blend in to my predominantly white surroundings, despite the fact that i was taught to value my blackness and not differentiate between races either aesthetically or judgementally; i.e., the blond, blue-eyed description you render summons images in me and my childhood memories of seamlessly fitting in and being free racial burden.

  21. @ John

    You were tormented as a child in Iowa for being blonde and blue-eyed ?

    I’m having trouble thinking of too many places whiter than Iowa. Even England or Germany probably has a higher percentage of non-whites.

  22. Camlost says,
    “However, even amongst this wigger population the white boys still aren’t selecting black women as mates, and/or having children with them. “

    Uhh, not really the case in terms of my day-to-day; I know what you’re saying overall, but the kind of white boys I was describing are very, very tuned into black girls.

    See, I think to guys like you and me (based on your anecdotal info in various threds, i’m assuming you’re roughly a Gen X’er in terms of age and era), that was certainly true: black females were clearly devalued; but nowadays, while they’re still ‘last,’ the youth pop culture clearly sexualizes and commodifies black females across racial lines (a la ‘Beyonce’, etc.); and if you notice when younger posters here like ‘Chad,’ and sometimes even john m. seem to reflect this newer pop reality in some of their comments, too.

    And I should add that I have no dog in this fight; in fact, a lot of my views anecdotally seem close to yours, as we’re near-contemporaries —–and i wouldn’t suggest what i do had i not taken on my job in public schools administration three years ago; so, together. that makes me feel quite sure that i’m on to something in terms of these observations.

  23. the youth pop culture clearly sexualizes and commodifies black females across racial lines (a la ‘Beyonce’, etc.);

    Well, Hip Hop videos commodify black women with Euro-centric features like Beyonce or Ciara, but I wouldn’t say that their looks are typical of black women – (sharp and/or thin nose, light skin, good/long hair). In fact, most of the black women in videos are mixed in some fashion and not pure black (i.e. remember Kanye West’s comment that there would be no video girls without “mutts”)

    If you walk around Africa or most black neighborhoods you’ll see VERY few black women that look like this.

    In contrast, my ideal of the white woman is probably Maria Sharapova or Giselle Bundchen. On a daily basis I can see hundreds of white women with their same look – they just come up short by a few percentage points in every category and don’t have the same total package when it comes to beauty.

  24. Camlost,

    I think you’re too hard on Black women sometimes. I see Black women everyday and I run into plenty with pleasant faces and others with incredible bodies. As far as a whole package, yeah, it doesn’t usually all come together, but I don’t find Black women repulsive for the most part. Though I’ve seen my share of Black behemoths(sometimes with beards) to understand where your distaste comes from.

    Also, I agree with Nikcrit’s point about White guys going for Black women. I see it more and more everyday and it’s usually the younger wiggers, but it’s not a rare sight.

    And that video you posted earlier kind of ruins my mental image of you. I always pictured this guy when I saw your posts:

  25. @ Sagat

    ROFLMAO, how did you find me?

    I think you’re too hard on Black women sometimes. I see Black women everyday and I run into plenty with pleasant faces and others with incredible bodies.

    That may be true.

    And, there’s no accounting for taste… and I’m just giving one man’s (loudmouth) opinion. So, just because I don’t like black women physically doesn’t make that the sole divine truth that should bind everyone on earth.

    However, you’ve got to admit the rarity of the features we see on black women trumpeted as beauties on TV. And when you talk about the origin of those features, you have to point to European admixture as a big factor.

    Think about it – Africa is a continent of 950+ million people, yet not one single model has ever emerged from the sub-saharan part of the continent. I’ve never heard anybody say “those hot African women down by the equator” and no males are going to Africa as sex tourists — but old wealthy white women (ignored by Western men their own age) are now going to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic to be wooed and pampered by young black males.

  26. Since no human races sprang from the ground in pre-made form, it’s misleading to talk about races being pure.

    Does anyone actually talk about races being pure, other than to say that they’re not? Mussolini said they’re not.

  27. Does anyone actually talk about races being pure, other than to say that they’re not? Mussolini said they’re not.

    The old theory of human evolution was the multi-regional model, which suggested that five human races evolved separately on different parts of the globe from which we received the classic racial categories – Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Capoid and Australoid. It assumed that all peoples either belonged to one of these five groups or were a mixture of two or more of these groups. Anyone that wasn’t a mixture was pure. These ideas still linger today.

    Take a look at a nordicist site sometime and you’ll see northern Europeans bragging about their purity while claiming that southern Europeans are a mongrel people and not true Whites. Even among Asians, Japanese will claim that southeast Asians aren’ t real Asians because they’re mixed with Australoids, while Koreans will claim that Japanese are mixed with the Jomon, who were also Australoids, and that they’re purer than Japanese.

  28. @Sagat

    No worries. I’ll keep my eye out for such an article. Perhaps you can tell him that you have talked to people online who have found a balance between racialism and positive thinking, or rather that you are not alone.

    @nikcrit

    I understand what you’re saying. Perhaps what I said was the truth for most organisms, but because we humans have a greater amount of freedom, we thus have the power to choose what path we take from an evolutionary standpoint. Unify or diverge. And that’s the inherit conflict. We have this power to determine our own fate, and can’t agree on the course to take.

    Ultimately I think we’ll have to find a way to satisfy both camps. Have a place for new identities to emerge while allowing to preserve pre-existing ones.

    @Camlost

    “You were tormented as a child in Iowa for being blonde and blue-eyed ?”

    I was raised in CT. The exact context was our teacher teaching us about the Holocaust, and after explaining Hitler’s Aryan ideal, a brown haired, brown-eyed girl got up and pointed to every blond/blue-eyed person (including yours truly) and shouted “Evil!” “Evil!”.

    And the teacher said nothing. She just gazed on, and continued her “lecture”.

    “I’m having trouble thinking of too many places whiter than Iowa. Even England or Germany probably has a higher percentage of non-whites.”

    It’s probably not going to last. There’s already growing non-white populations. The only thing Iowa has for being a white refuge is a combination of high native white reproduction and a large influx of whites from other states (such as myself). But my generation is at bat for the reproduction gambit, and I have my doubts if we’re going to resist the trend of producing less than 2 children.

  29. Also Camlost, I believe Iowa is where the infamous brown eye/blue eye education experiment began, where white Iowans were guinea pigs in an early experiment in white guilt.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Eyes/Brown_Eyes

    So I wonder if I would have experienced something better had I grown up in Iowa. So far it seems like this is where I’ll be settling down, so for the sake of my future children, I hope that such things don’t happen in the Iowa public school system anymore.

  30. And Des Moines recently had “beat Whitey night” so I wonder how much longer Iowa will be a White haven.

    Officials announced last week that they were stepping up security outside the fairgrounds after a series of attacks Aug. 14 that included a pair of stabbings. Investigators are still investigating those assaults and victims intend to pursue charges.

    Sgt. David Murillo stated in a report on Friday night, “On-duty officers at the fairgrounds advise there was a group of 30 to 40 individuals roaming the fairgrounds openly calling it ‘beat whitey night.’ “

  31. “Wow, Nik. I am actually surprised at that comment. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you so explicitly champion the White race and culture before. You almost come across like a White nationalist there. 😛 ”

    It’s his white side waking up. I knew it would awaken if we gave it a little push. 😉

    In all seriousness, it’s really nice to see non-whites/multiracials saying nice things about whites. It’s quite… therapeutic to see white America portrayed as something good and essential, rather than some sinister Fourth Reich waiting to rise and oppress innocent non-whites.

    Thanks 🙂

    Also, nik, when you describe your childhood, I’m in complete disbelief. But then again, it seems like the 80’s (which I assume was when you were a kid, correct me if I’m wrong) was a time when there was both an acceptance of racial diversity along with a non-demonization of whites. At least I pick those vibes up in 80’s movies and TV shows. America is depicted as a white nation, but there are minorities present, and they are accepted as Americans, and are not a threat to the white makeup of America.

    Am I off the mark here? My childhood was in the 90’s, which was a much different racial scenario, where political correctness began to take root, along with the promotion of non-white interests paired with anti-white sentiment, although the white bashing has really gained steam in the last decade.

  32. Sagat, yeah I read about that. I was wondering when the powder keg would go off. Iowa City has had tons of incidents of black-on-white crime, but the recent incident at Des Moines is the first documented incident with undeniable evidence of racial bias.

    The attack is very bold. It’s in one of the whitest states in the Union, and if they can pull off a racial skirmish here without much repercussion, then really, this proves that any white in any part of the country is fair game.

  33. I was wondering when the powder keg would go off. Iowa City has had tons of incidents of black-on-white crime, but the recent incident at Des Moines is the first documented incident with undeniable evidence of racial bias.

    I picture most white Iowans as being very naive on race, since most of their experience with black people is from television. I am sure that a majority of them hold of the liberal PC views like “crime is everywhere” and believe that blacks are no different from anyone else.

    Here in Atlanta we know better, and don’t get caught off guard so easily.

  34. And Des Moines recently had “beat Whitey night” so I wonder how much longer Iowa will be a White haven.

    These are not large-scale trends, though. It’s not like these events can be compared to the Zebra murders in the ’70’s or likened to any organized Black Panther-type movements with true grassroots organization and political backing.

    That event at the Iowa State Fair was nothing more than the wilding of 30-40 bored ghetto rats who got out of their cage in a public place and went crazy. Here in Atlanta everyone knows the areas frequented by these types of ghetto mobs, and can avoid them or can spot them quickly if unexpected guests arrive.

    When you take the violent, the anti-social and the ignorant and fill them with envy and boredom this is what you get.

    When thing about ghetto rats is that they hate the fact that everyone has money except for them – they see the other fair goers who seem to be having fun and spending money, while they are sitting there flat broke. Plus, they’ve been told all of their lives that they are poor solely because of the white man’s oppression (rather than due to the lack of parenting and/or education given by their parents).

  35. Sagat sez,
    “And that video you posted earlier kind of ruins my mental image of you. I always pictured this guy when I saw your posts:”

    This remark reminded me of a comment i submitted to the final thred on GW, but which got flagged and never made it out of moderation, because i had included too many links within and Guy apparently never got around to okaying it, etc.

    Anyhow, here it is:

    @fred,
    re. “But I think he was probably more aspie than me. If you know what I mean.”

    Actually, I didn’t think of him as being that way — nor did I think of you as ‘Aspie’ in any way; and I was surprised when you first mentioned that you were an ‘Aspie,’ as I never would’ve guessed.

    Actually, speaking about how I took to this blog and how it was somewhat surprising how much I enjoyed or identified with it at times, it’s funny how I sometimes got real specific images and ideas of what certain online personas or avatars were ‘like,’ — when, of course, with just a moment’s further reflection, it’s obvious that none of us have absolutely any idea of what the real person behind the avatar is like. so, it’s all the more bizarre to have real fixed ideas of what certain posters here look or act like —yet I do have such ideas.
    hopefully, since i’m going way off-topic for a moment to make this tangential point, the following will be entertaining for some of the longer-running posters to this blog. For the following are some links of commonly known people who for whatever reason I would guess resemble certain posters here. Some of these notions probably come from bits of bio info offered from the commenters themselves; others are just strong hunches, which of course may be way off…

    here goes:

    Fred
    (no, this has nothing to do with his current notoriety and being in the news)

    a.n. animus

    john mcneil,

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2200216869

    chad

    ok. that’s it; please remember: no intent to insult; just thought it’d be funny to convey these vague yet long-held impressions — which, i do realize, probably have no basis in reality.
    But let me know if I got it right on any of these!

    p.s.— one more:

    Guy White —- but imagine the person in this link with undyed hair and a suit-and-tie.

    Those were some long links Nik. I smoothed it out for you. – Sagat

  36. john mcneill says,
    “In all seriousness, it’s really nice to see non-whites/multiracials saying nice things about whites. It’s quite… therapeutic to see white America portrayed as something good and essential, rather than some sinister Fourth Reich waiting to rise and oppress innocent non-whites. ”

    I guess I can understand that, as it is rather rare in modern times to see such praises sung by minorities.
    But there’s a reason for that; it relates to something we also talk about quite a bit: the legacy of WWII. I mean, in truth, I think most minorities i encounter, say, in the public schools, may not consciously think such thoughts, but it’s almost a given that they’d accord such respect to whites based on the most rudimentary observation of the world as it is and the state and patterns of ‘current arrangements,’etc.
    The problem is that if I or some other minority acknowledge as much, even begrudgingly, it’s so easy to look like a fool when, beside all these moderate and principled ‘pro-whiters,’ there exists that disproportionate bunch of outright racists and anti-semites (and who revel in their unpopular and stigmatized status).
    So, John —— not that you don’t understand this already —- but that, of course, has much to do with the fact that whites were overvilified and near everything to do with why you rarely see the founding virtue of white culture touted by minorities today. Again, to bring up a somewhat tired subject and warning: that is why i believe it is so important to get some of the more principled pro-white, hbd ‘community’ and discussion as far as possible away from the Stormfront-type crowd; i mean, you have to do some soul-searching and honestly assess where you’re at. And I would think that merely by doing that you would find it in your best interest to do as much, because that crowd, in my view, does not do you and yours justice and in fact is an insult to what you’re about.

  37. I agree Nik; it’s why I’ve ceased interacting with the majority of WNs, because even if they aren’t outright anti-Semites/racists, they are often in orbit of such people. I’ve tried to isolate the extremists, and pull the more reasonable people into my camp, but it seems that once you are infected with the disease of anti-Semitism, it’s a downward spiral. Lawrence Auster is right, you have to reject interacting with them. A handful may see the light, but that requires an individual journey that cannot be hurried through debate and sophistry on my part.

    It sucks, because it means I have to stop visiting most of the blogs I’ve been spending time on. But really I wasn’t getting anywhere. Seeing the most popular posts on Alternative Right being “The Anglosphere fought on the wrong side of the war!” was a wake up call that I needed to abandon ship fast.

    The truth is that these people are never going to get anywhere. They keep gloating about a white racial revolution just around the corner, pitchforks at the ready, but they have no evidence of such a thing happening. They refuse to understand how difficult it would be to either “reclaim the country” or secure an ethnostate, and have no interest in pursuing more reasonable goals. And worst of all, by continuing to point the finger at Jews and minorities, they refuse to see how we whites are responsible for our own fall. And thus the problems will continue to fester.

  38. nikcrit writes, “there exists that disproportionate bunch of outright racists and anti-semites (and who revel in their unpopular and stigmatized status).”

    And yet blacks are the ones who engage in massive hate crimes campaigns like the attacks against whites in Des Moines or the attacks against Asians and Hispanics that are taking place in California and the Northeast.

    And what is your recommendation???

    that is why i believe it is so important to get some of the more principled pro-white, hbd ‘community’ and discussion as far as possible away from the Stormfront-type crowd

    Regardless of what one thinks of “stormfront”, they’re not the problem. The problem is a leftist entertainment industry that invents stories about mean ole whitey while portraying Omar Thornton a “victim of racism”.

  39. “And what is your recommendation???”

    That those blacks, who’ve been proved to have acted in a racially motivated way, be charged with hate crimes as well —– though, i prefer ‘hate-crime laws’ be rescinded and to simply let the criminal behavior speak for itself and lead to certain charges, etc.

  40. “Those were some long links Nik. I smoothed it out for you. – Sagat”

    Thanks, Sagat! (As you probably could deduct, along with not being too up-to-speed in the science part of racial genetics, i’m also little more than a novice at html code).

  41. fred writes,
    “Regardless of what one thinks of “stormfront”, they’re not the problem. The problem is a leftist entertainment industry that invents stories about mean ole whitey while portraying Omar Thornton a ‘victim of racism’.”

    Fred, I recall us talking about this subject at GW quite a while ago, in the form of Chuck and I commenting on a long post you made about liberal jews and SWPL-inspired programming and thematics emanating from Hollywood.

    In short, I would agree with you that there’s a disproportion, but i think the reason white-on-black crime is overreproted is because, 1) it’s much rarer and therefore more sensational, along wiht the fact that it plays directly into a huge, huge part of the recent american identity: the civil rights movements; and 2) black-on-white crime is much more common, and the racial element is diluted by the fact that much of it —-though not all of it —- is motivated primarily by material gain, with racial animosity only a secondary or subconscious element, or at least not one that could clearly be attributed to the crime. (And in those instances where that’s not the case and the crime clearly was motivated by animosity toward whites, you see it duly reported).

    As to your cultural concern: here’s a hunch from a former pop-culture critic: I betcha, with the rise of the Tea Party movement and other such developments that have gained a clear identity wiht the national culture, I bet it follows that Hollywood will soon be depicting said national sentiments in movies and t.v. shows, etc.; so, fear not: this year’s slew of b-rated p.c. melodramas will be supplanted in a few years by a plethora of hoary, plight-of-the-working-class-white-guy-type morality tales several fall seaons down the line! 🙂

  42. In short, I would agree with you that there’s a disproportion, but i think the reason white-on-black crime is overreproted is because,

    Let’s not forget the Duke Lacrosse case, and how the group of 88 liberal professors went on record to jump in and proclaim the kids guilty from day 1.

    There’s a political angle, too.

    Those “crimes” that fit the political agenda will be over-reported.

  43. @fred

    “Regardless of what one thinks of “stormfront”, they’re not the problem.”

    Agreed. They and their allies are irrelevant. Which is why I’m moving on.

  44. Nik, you think I’m a prep? Curious. 😉

    Well, perhaps prep culture has rubbed off on me somewhat; the majority of my classmates were preps.

  45. Take a look at a nordicist site sometime and you’ll see northern Europeans bragging about their purity while claiming that southern Europeans are a mongrel people and not true Whites.

    Yeah, you’re probably right. I never go to Nordicist sites. But you probably already guessed that.

    I wish there were better words for the kind of Sailer/Mangan-style race realist to better distinguish them from the ultra-ethno-centric whiter-than-thou types. The latter give me a pain.

  46. “Nik, you think I’m a prep? Curious”

    Nah. That was just a bit of momentary jesting, written over a month ago, on GW’s last thred; but it didn’t run cuz there were too many links and Guy never pulled it out of moderation.

    And the only intuition for it was based on looks — or whatever notion one gets from conversing with avatars; to me, it’s strange how much one’s intuitive mind gets real fixed ideas about how specificallly they feel they get to ‘know’ someone online, in terms of that personalities mind and even physical image —– but of course, if one knows anything at all its that you really don’t know anything whatsoever about these avatars out there in the blogosphere.
    So please take that only as a passing amusement; i.e., if i were a betting man, i wouldn’t drop as much as a dime on these premonitions. 🙂

  47. @nikcrit

    It’s all good. For what’s it worth, I keep visualizing you wearing a suit and red bow tie. I have no idea why.

    @ B Lode

    “I wish there were better words for the kind of Sailer/Mangan-style race realist to better distinguish them from the ultra-ethno-centric whiter-than-thou types. The latter give me a pain.”

    Yeah I agree. The more I read about European genes and phenotypes, the more I find it difficult to classify Europeans into concrete biological sub-races. Ethnicity is really the only thing we can by, with ethno-cultural grouping like Germanic/Slavic/Celtic/Italic etc.

  48. It’s all good. For what’s it worth, I keep visualizing you wearing a suit and red bow tie. I have no idea why.

    Until I see a photo, I will continue to envision Nikcrit as Carlton from “The Fresh Prince”.

    Also, I picture John McNeil as a typical blond dude you’d see as the first mate in a German U-boat film.

    LOL

  49. “I wish there were better words for the kind of Sailer/Mangan-style race realist to better distinguish them from the ultra-ethno-centric whiter-than-thou types. The latter give me a pain.”

    The word you’re seeking is education.

    The level of education is what clearly separates readers of the various WN/citizenist/HBD/race realist forums.

    If you take a look at the open forum in Stormfront an alarming number of the reader-added threads have basic misspellings in the title. Or, they’re about tabloid-type “conspiracy” stuff like “Obama building internment camps in Guantanamo for housing right-wing militias” or “Obama has already developed plans for imminent invasion of Iran to support Israeli incursion within one week.”

  50. Until I see a photo, I will continue to envision Nikcrit as Carlton from “The Fresh Prince”.

    😆 Now that you’ve implanted that image into my head along with John’s description of Nikcrit, this is what I see when I read Nikcrit’s posts:

  51. ok, enough. look what i started with that little jpeg matching post…

    but just to be clear: Carlton? Uh-uh; I’m 6’3″ and over 200lbs…… I think i already told camlost the first time he said that: think former nba player rick fox, but MUCH more out of shape and probably not as well dressed.

  52. @nik

    Too late, the avatar gods have spoken. You are hence evermore Carlton in the eyes of the masses. ;p

    @Camlost

    You callin me a Nazi? ;p

    lol it’s all good. I’m used to being compared/conceptualized as a Russian/Soviet commissar, but I suppose I have not been broadcasting my russophilia and Soviet nostalgia enough on this blog!

    Now where’s my vodka?

  53. ok, enough. look what i started with that little jpeg matching post

    Ha, I was just messing with you Nik. I realize that you don’t look like Carlton. I tried to find a picture of a slightly overweight, slovenly dressed Rick Fox to supplant the Carlton image. This was the best I could find:

  54. The one takeaway from the Carlton photo is that black people can pull off bowties (successfully) much better than any other race. I don’t know why, maybe it’s genetic.

    When I see someone like Tucker Carlson or Paul Simon in a bowtie it just doesn’t look cool.

  55. “Being a lover of anthropology, I’ve felt a sense of loss at the destruction of genetically distinct peoples, […] I’ve been questioning the concept of racial preservation recently.”

    I don’t know if my comment is a bit off-track, but this is what your post inspired me to write.

    I too am fascinated by the pictures in your post “Faces Around the World.” They are all beautiful to me because they are unique, honed by evolution with hopes of survival and destined for inevitable change, their genes, passed on or not, their cultural memes may or may not survive … we evolve and continue to evolve, something new replaces the old … we continue to evolve into that which will adapt and survive.

    I don’t care much if “race” or “phenotype” is preserved. We adapt into what will survive in whatever environment we are in. The best genes for survival will be filtered out. Survival, more or less, for the fittest.

    The thing that concerns me is the memes that we nuture and are passed on. Our values. Race is a sick obsession in this country and leading the “cultural revolution” are the guilt-ridden white liberal elite intellegensia and the sucking-at-the-government-teat black quasi-socialist racism chasers. You cannot have an intelligent discussion with these people because their brains have been hijacked by viral memes.

    I love America, the values the founding fathers had and how our Constitution and laws evolved. It wasn’t/isn’t perfect (as evolution is not) but I cannot think of another form of government that’s better for people to freely pursue their happiness: a democratic Republic. And we have (had) established it here.

    We have so much here (maybe too much), and we are not wise at all. It makes me sad the memes we are nurturing, accepting and will pass on to our children. I have no hopes America will be a worthwhile place 50 or 100 years from now unless people wake up. We had something beautiful here, not perfect, but with so much potential. I don’t think we are the people we once were.

    And yet still, people from oppressive countries come here and thrive. I marvel at what they are made of and how Americans too once had that indominable spark within before political correctness killed it.

    So as much as I love the contrast and color and the uniqueness of the biology (pale white skin, blue-black skin, blue eyes, green eyes, red hair and combinations of all of them) and find beautiful the unique physical and cultural aspects of groups of people, the genes will do what they have to do to survive. The memes are a bit of a different story.

  56. re: “http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/chris-brown-bow-tie.jpg”

    camlost, i think you’re getting a bit carried away on this tangent that i started; btw: I didn’t know that Chris Brown was really the secret black fifth Beatle!

  57. @ Sagat

    What is the URL tag/code for embedding images into our comments?

    Or are you the only one able to do that?

  58. Olive,

    Thanks for that thoughtful post. You express many of the ideas that I’ve been pondering recently. I too worry about the course of our nation and what new cultural standards will come to usurp the values that have made America what it is. It’s an important question that needs to be looked at with honesty by the American people.

    And you are right. It is the memes that are important, but different peoples bring new memes to replace those that existed before them. And many times it happens without malicious intent. It’s just the natural course when new peoples are different from the old.

  59. Olive writes,

    I don’t care much if “race” or “phenotype” is preserved. We adapt into what will survive in whatever environment we are in. The best genes for survival will be filtered out. Survival, more or less, for the fittest.

    I agree with some of your last comment. But it should come as no surprise to most that I don’t agree with the part I quoted. Natural selection requires genetic isolation. That’s not an option. It’s a requirement. Also, the natural selection that makes one population “fit” for one environment is often the opposite of that which makes them fit for another. And, finally, there is such a thing as outbreeding depression that damages the existing gene complexes as they are broken down.

    The following link is a very serious example of outbreeding depression which occurred in India as a result of breeding African and Asian lions. In the article they try to pass it off as “inbreeding” and downplay the “outbreeding” aspect. But the defects are the result of genetic incompatibilities. And inbreeding compounded the problem. But the damage was done by the outbreeding. The proof of this is that they sterilized all the lions instead of mixing the “healthy” ones back into a larger gene pool.

    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/chhatbir-zoo-waits-for-the-last-roar/22159-3.html?from=nextstory

    And in case anyone is wondering if miscegenation has similar results in humans the answer is YES. The results aren’t as extreme but there is a higher rate of many diseases and psychological problems among persons who are mixed.

  60. Correction:

    Natural selection requires genetic isolation.

    should read

    EVOLUTION requires genetic isolation.

    I was still sleepy when I wrote that.

  61. “…there is a higher rate of many diseases and psychological problems among persons who are mixed.”

    Yeah, yeah, yeah; the sky is falling. Again!
    This, from a ‘zebra ‘who’s disease-free and has never been to see a shrink in his life. 🙂

  62. @ fred,

    I have always been under the impression that … isolated groups can develop certain infirmities and illnesses that make mating outside of the genetic grouping advantageous. Too much “inbreeding” among certain isolated groups that are isolated physically or that impose isolation, i.e. strictly require marriage within bloodlines and within one’s own ethnic group can produce illnessness and biologically sickly people. I know this happens with human beings. Maybe both inbreeding and outbreeding genetic illnesses can happen, all depending on when it is done within a group of people. I am searching the web for specifics, as it is interesting. I keep thinking of sickle cell anemia … protects against malaria, but if you inherit all four alleles (or genes, I forget my biology) you inherit a potentially deadly disease. So is this evolution working within an isolated group for the better or worse?

    I read the link you provided about the lions … can we take into account that these animals were in PRISON? In a zoo? In the wild it would have either not happened or if it did, they would have died or maybe a new species, a stronger population then either one of the groups would have been born. I don’t know, I’m not an expert … I’m not arguing with you, just tossing out ideas.

    “And, finally, there is such a thing as outbreeding depression that damages the existing gene complexes as they are broken down.” […] “And in case anyone is wondering if miscegenation has similar results in humans the answer is YES. The results aren’t as extreme but there is a higher rate of many diseases and psychological problems among persons who are mixed.”

    I don’t know about the biology and genes, but I know that so-called “mixed” people in certain situations may have depression more than others because, like the lions, they also can be in PRISON … a zoo of “culture,” a psychological prison, especially if they have two conflicting emnity cultures on either side. Unless they have strong parents and family who love them and give them a strong individual identity of who they are as human beings regardless of skin color or ethnicity or what is handed to them as “culture,” and it is imparted to them that … they don’t have to conform to anybody’s idea of who they have to be, it is their values and character that matters, then they will have the same amount of psychological problems as anyone else who is “mono-raced” in this country … or not. Just my opinion.

    Olive

  63. @ Sagat,

    ” […] different peoples bring new memes to replace those that existed before them. And many times it happens without malicious intent. It’s just the natural course when new peoples are different from the old.”

    I understand this. But people forget, Sagat. They become anaesthetized to their surroundings. Like walking into a room that smells bad; if you stay in it, after a while it doesn’t smell bad anymore, it smells normal. I worked many years in an office that had a huge picture window overlooking the harbor; sunrises and sunsets were spectacular, rainbows, fog and lights, moonlit nights … you would think … it would never become “common” … but it does, until you don’t have it anymore.

    We can’t become complacent; America, depsite its many flaws that are pointed out to us daily, hourly by CNN and the liberal media, is precious. We have to be aware and awake and observant throughout our life, and be wise to discern the memes we are leaving our children.

    Some memes new people bring are better than our existing memes … many immigrants are more “American,” more independent, smarter, more industrious, more freedom-loving than Americans who are here for many generations. The new ones easily see through our politically-correct, brain-washing media droning on to our dumbed-down populace. They came from oppressive places, and can see through the BS … others just go with the flow and become part of the sheeple, learning the ins and outs, taking advantage of every handout and loop-hole and learn how to use the victimology memes.

    Olive

  64. “Or a better question might be, would our society survive if all Whites were quadroons and octaroons?”

    Huh???? You mean Caucasians of mixed-race black/white ancestry? Is it possible, considering the “one drop” racist meme, employed by whites and blacks alike in a power bid for their own purposes, that if you have “one drop” you are black? Interesting article here.

  65. re. “Maybe both inbreeding and outbreeding genetic illnesses can happen, all depending on when it is done within a group of people.”

    —– Outside my element, but this sounds reasonable and likely to me.

    re. “… they don’t have to conform to anybody’s idea of who they have to be, it is their values and character that matters, then they will have the same amount of psychological problems as anyone else who is “mono-raced” in this country … ”

    again: outside my element, but if i was forced to opine on this question of nature-vs.-nurture causation, I might’ve come up with something close to these exact words.

    I can’t speak to the question of whether ‘inbreeding depression’ exists amongst animals —— way beyond my skillset; but its being transfigured and willed into human manifestation sounds to me to be more a wish than an observation of scientific fact ——- yet another example of forging the ‘new phrenology’ onto a strictly ideological belief.

  66. Both inbreeding and outbreeding lead to problems, however, I disagree with both Olive and Fred.

    Fred, I don’t think humans are genetically distant enough that any mixing between humans of different races would lead to outbreeding depression. Peoples of Central Asia are basically biracial, perhaps with a slightly larger East-Asian-to-Caucasian gene ratio. And they don’t exhibit any greater deficiencies than their Caucasoid or Mongoloid neighbors.

    Olive, there are plenty of examples of isolated population groups that have been homogenous for centuries and are not inbred. Iceland is an example of this. Research was done showing that Icelandic people are products of third-cousin marriages or greater, showing that so along as you do not tolerate incest or 1st/2nd cousin marriages, you will be fine.

  67. Olive writes, “I have always been under the impression that … isolated groups can develop certain infirmities and illnesses that make mating outside of the genetic grouping advantageous.”

    I’m not a geneticist. But I do read and have a basic understanding of genetics. The problem is that most people don’t have a good enough grasp of the fundamentals for me to explain concepts via a comment on a blog. So you’re giving me two tasks. First, to explain genetics. Second, to explain how inbreeding and outbreeding depression works. Get ready to read a book.

    Chapter 1: Basics

    Genetics is based on a “code” in which 4 nucleotide subunits are arranged on a strand of DNA. Those nucleotide subunits are repeated over and over countless times in various combinations. Each combination is a message giving instruction on how to produce a protein.

    As cells divide they reproduce a copy of that code. But it’s not an exact copy. I’m sure you couldn’t crank out a book without a few typos and neither can those cells. Occasionally, a “typo” is an improvement but the vast majority of typos are misspelled. The result is that every time a cell divides mistakes are made and those mistakes are cumulative. They get passed on the next time, too.

    So the vast majority of typos aren’t beneficial. But neither are they particularly deadly. Because one inherits two copies of each – one from the mother and one from the father. In some cases, one copy will be dominant and the other recessive. And in some cases, one correct copy is enough to get one by without any serious problems.

    EVERYONE has typos (ie mistakes) in their DNA. But what might not be so obvious is why some people have diseases and others don’t. The reason for this can be found in the difference between genotype and phenotype. Genotype is one’s actual DNA. Phenotype is how that genotype is expressed. For example, one could have a serious typo on how to produce some essential chemical for the blood. But if it’s recessive then it might not actually show up in the phenotype. The person still carries the typo but they don’t have the disease.

    ================================

    Chapter 2: Inbreeding Depression

    There are lots of different typos and different people carry different ones. Obviously, more closely related individuals are more likely to carry the same typos because they inherited more of their DNA from common ancestors. For example, if a black man carries the sickle cell gene then his children have a much higher chance of carrying that gene than two random blacks. Therefore, if he has a son and daughter who both inherit a copy of his sickle cell gene and they have 4 children together then the odds are that one of them will have no copies of the sickle cell gene, one of them will have two copies of the sickle cell gene, and two of them will have one copy and one normal copy. Statistically, that’s how it would work out.

    Based on what one sees expressed in the phenotype of the offspring people will look at that and say, “OH MY GOD! Incest is bad!” After all, one of the 4 kids got sickle cell anemia and died. Clearly, inbreeding was “bad” for the kid who died. But was it “bad” for the gene pool? Let’s take a closer look.

    The brother and sister each carried a copy of the sickle cell gene. And they had two children who each carried a copy of the sickle cell gene. So far it’s a wash. They also had a kid who carried no copies of the sickle cell gene and a kid who carried both copies of the gene. So it still looks like a wash doesn’t it? Well, it’s not. Because one of the kids got sickle cell anemia and died before reproducing. From a statistical standpoint, the parents had 50% healthy genes and 50% sickle cell genes. Whereas the next generation to reproduce will have 66% healthy genes and 33% sickle cell genes. This is a net IMPROVEMENT to the gene pool.

    At this point, one might be tempted to say that if the brother and sister hadn’t inbred then no child would have inherited two copies of the gene and died. And I suppose that’s true. On the other hand, how do you think positive traits got passed along? If the negative traits aren’t showing up in the phenotype because no one is inbreeding then the positive traits aren’t showing up either. There’s no way around it – without inbreeding natural selection and evolution grind to a screeching halt temporarily.

    Why do I say it’s “temporary”? Because typos (ie mistakes) are still being introduced into the gene pool. And they’re still cumulative. Sooner or later there will be so many that the sh*t will hit the fan. There’s just no way around it. Historically, people didn’t move around as much as they do now. Most people all over the world married within their own tribe or village. They may not have been marrying siblings but they were marrying cousins. And there was a much higher infant and child mortality rate. A lot of it was environmental but some of it was genetic. As awful as that sounds, it helped to keep the gene pool healthy.

    But that’s not the case any more. Most people move around a lot. And they’re not marrying cousins. In the short term, the phenotypes tend to be a bit healthier. But it’s not because the gene pool is healthier. It’s not healthier. In fact, it’s less healthy. But it looks healthier because there is less inbreeding depression. But as explained above, inbreeding depression is how the gene pool keeps itself healthy.

    =========================

    Chapter 3: Outbreeding Depression

    Now back to the drawing board for “outbreeding depression”. When most people think of miscegenation they usually think of “hybrid vigor”. Once again, that’s one of those terms that gets thrown around a lot but most people don’t understand. Hybrid vigor is actually pretty rare. In fact, when two different strains are bred one is likely to get offspring that resemble one parent or the other, something in between, or something weird that doesn’t look like anything.

    Just like its rare for a new mutation to be beneficial it’s similarly rare for “hybrid vigor” to occur. You can’t just throw any two strains together and expect an improvement. Scientists at monsanto work very hard to develop strains with hybrid vigor. What’s more, it usually only lasts for a generation. If you’ve ever planted the seeds from a hybrid plant then you know the seeds don’t produce plants like their parents. That’s why these seed companies keep the pure forms of the plants around to produce new seeds. I’ll explain why later on.

    To the extent that outbreeding lessens “inbreeding depression” it has short term benefits. But one need not go to another country to lessen “inbreeding depression”. One could do that by marrying someone from 50 miles away. Besides, I’ve already explained why inbreeding depression is actually necessary to keep the gene pool healthy. Short term benefits create long term disasters.

    But is it bad? Most mutations are considered “harmless” and don’t have much effect one way or the other. And what is miscegenation but the introduction of “mutations” from another race or species?

    Whether or not one mixed plant or animal has problems isn’t really the issue. Statistically, mixed race persons do have higher rates of many diseases. If you google a whole bunch of diseases with “biracial” you’ll find that in many cases mixed persons do have higher rates of the disease. In fact, there was a recent study that showed 34% of hapas experienced some form of mental illness compared to 17% of non mixed. A tendency towards mental illness is usually inherited. The brain is pretty complicated so one would expect problems to show up there. But asians and caucasians are only 30,000 years apart compared to 100,000 for other racial combinations. So I’m actually surprised there were that many problems. I’m sure the rate of race specific diseases such as sickle cell is less for mixed than non mixed. But as previously discussed, that isn’t necessarily a good thing for the gene pool.

    Now that I’ve gotten all that out of the way, what’s the real objection to “outbreeding”? Outbreeding depression. Genes don’t exist in isolation. It takes a lot of genes working together to create an eye or a brain or a kidney or anything else. Those genes form what is known as coadaptive gene complexes. You can’t just go swapping genes out with new ones and expect good things to happen. It might not be deadly and it might not be noticeable in one generation but it’s not a good thing. It’s like putting Ford parts on a Caddilac. You might get it to run but it’s probably not going to help it.

    But outbreeding depression is actually worse. From the wikipedia article on outbreeding depression

    As a general rule of thumb, hybrid vigor (another way of saying a reduction of inbreeding depression) is strongest in first generation hybrids and gets weaker over time. In contrast, outbreeding depression can be relatively weak in the first generation. But outside the context of ruthless selective pressure, outbreeding depression will increase in power through the further generations as co-adapted gene complexes are broken apart without the forging of new co-adapted gene complexes to take their place.

    In other words, every generation those genes that didn’t evolve to work together get shuffled. So every generation there is a new way for them to screw up. And that’s assuming that no new genes are introduced (ie miscegenation). Genes that actually served a purpose and were beneficial in the coadaptive gene complex of one strain become pollution in the coadaptive gene complex of another.

    The only way to correct the situation is through what I said in Chaper 2 — ruthless natural selection. And that’s an awful high price to pay just to get a nut.

    ===================

    Chapter 4 – Miscellaneous

    Maybe both inbreeding and outbreeding genetic illnesses can happen

    As I’ve explained, there is a major difference between inbreeding and outbreeding depression. One instance produces short term illness for long term benefits. The other instance produces both short term benefits AND short term illness for long term illnesses. The only exception for this might be a situation in which one of the genes introduced might prove extremely beneficial down the road such as a gene for immunity to plague or small pox. But that really is a long shot.

    So is this evolution working within an isolated group for the better or worse?

    That’s a case of balancing selection conserving genetic polymorphism. The deaths from sickle cell are balanced against the deaths from malaria to give heterozygotes higher adaptive value in tropical climes.

    we take into account that these animals were in PRISON?

    Being in a zoo or in the wild doesn’t change the principles of genetics. The same thing happens with all miscegenation to some extent. The smaller population only magnified the negative effects.

    In the wild it would have either not happened or if it did, they would have died or maybe a new species, a stronger population then either one of the groups would have been born.

    A stronger population? Probably not. As the co adaptive gene complexes were broken down it would have led to more disease. A modified species may have emerged eventually but it would have taken generations and cost a lot of lives to get back to where it was. What would be the benefit of that?

    but I know that so-called “mixed” people in certain situations may have depression more than others because, like the lions, they also can be in PRISON … a zoo of “culture,” a psychological prison, especially if they have two conflicting emnity cultures on either side.

    The way I was using the term “depression” has to do with overall health and fitness not necessarily someone’s mental health. Environmental facts can influence mental health but most people inherit a tendency towards mental illness. The brain is very complex. A lot of things have to happen for it to work correctly. I’m reminded of a study I read a while back in which certain genes were associated with an average increase or decrease in IQ. For example, gene A increased IQ by 4 points and gene B decreased IQ by 3. The interesting thing about the study is that genes that were associated with an increase/ decrease in one race didn’t necessarily produce an increase/ decrease in another. That’s an example of the co adaptive gene complex I was referring to.

    then they will have the same amount of psychological problems as anyone else who is “mono-raced” in this country … or not.

    There are plenty of homogeneous people with loving & supportive parents who are nuttier than a fruitcake. “Loving & supportive” parents are great but I’d put my money on genetics as the main factor in mental health whether one is homogeneous or not. Do you think Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hui Cho or Chai Vang’s parents weren’t loving and supportive? It wouldn’t have made any difference if they had been adopted by Mother Theresa or Idi Amin. They were just batshit crazy.

    ===============

    Conclusion:

    Now, I realize people may disagree with what I’ve written will likely be very personally difficult for some to read. And it flies in the face of all the myths and rumours to which they’ve been exposed. Plus, incest is just “nasty” isn’t it? But I don’t really care if what I’m saying is “nasty” or “racist” or violates “taboos”. My points are scientifically correct. Ultimately, it requires death to keep entropy at bay. If one doesn’t like it they should blame Mother Nature because she’s a cold-hearted bitch and doesn’t care if we like it or not.

  68. How ironic that my sentence on “typos” ended up being a “typo”. But that should illustrate the unpredictability of mutations.

  69. Fred, I’m not attacking you here. I just want to understand your ideas better. Do you think it would be wise for society to promote 1st/2nd cousin marriages? Or do you think that it would be a bad idea since our society would do everything it can to keep the bad products of incest alive, thus preserving the really bad mutations?

  70. John writes,

    Fred, I don’t think humans are genetically distant enough that any mixing between humans of different races would lead to outbreeding depression.

    It’s not a matter of whether outbreeding depression results from miscegenation. It does. It’s a fact. The question is, “How much?”

    Peoples of Central Asia are basically biracial, perhaps with a slightly larger East-Asian-to-Caucasian gene ratio. And they don’t exhibit any greater deficiencies than their Caucasoid or Mongoloid neighbors.

    How would you know?

  71. John writes, I just want to understand your ideas better.

    I’m not advocating incest. I’m putting scientific concepts in perspective. Most people would probably abort a child with known genetic defects whether it’s the result of incest or not. In fact, you’d be shocked to learn how common infanticide has been historically. When I first read this article it blew my mind.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

    My personal opinion is that eugenics is necessary and reasonable policies should be in place. People whine about silly sh*t like global warming and animal rights but ignore genetic health. It’s ridiculous.

  72. “It’s not a matter of whether outbreeding depression results from miscegenation. It does. It’s a fact. The question is, “How much?”

    Fair enough. Where would you draw the line?

    “How would you know?”

    I’ve never been to a Central Asian nation, but I don’t see any extreme dysfunction in those nations. Some strife definitely, but nothing exceptionally extreme. Overall, my impression of Kazahk, Turkmen, Krygyz and Uighur society is that they are fairly stable, minus the conflict against ethnic rivals. Central Asian nations seem much more resistant towards radical Islam, which I also find interesting.

    “My personal opinion is that eugenics is necessary and reasonable policies should be in place.”

    What would be reasonable policies? No attacks will be directed from me, I’m curious.

  73. Fair enough. Where would you draw the line?

    Geneticists have identified a number of clearly defined clusters. At the very least those should be maintained. There are probably more narrow subdivisions but they would likely be less well-defined. Without more research it would be difficult to say. On the other hand, I’m not sure restricting miscegenation would necessarily be the key. It might be better to hit it from the end by encouraging endogamy.

    I’ve never been to a Central Asian nation, but I don’t see any extreme dysfunction in those nations.

    The reason I asked, “How would you know?” is that there have recently been a number of articles on Amren discussing the rate of diseases among Pakistanis as a result of inbreeding. The fact that escaped notice makes your contra argument somewhat moot. Moreover, one would not only expect higher disease rates due to outbreeding but even higher rates as a result of subsequent inbreeding. Because the damage due to outbreeding wouldn’t go away just because they started inbreeding later on.

    As a matter of fact, many of those countries are extremely dysfuntional with shockingly low IQs. Why do east asians and europeans have higer IQs when central asians are so low? Though I’m not necessarily putting the blame for that on outbreeding. I don’t how much outbreeding actually took place there. It’s easy to dismiss central asians as “hybrids” but are they really? I’m not so sure. There is a diff between hybrid and cline.

    What would be reasonable policies?

    1) Put a stop to immigration. No exceptions.

    2) Deport undesirables. Start with illegals and anchor babies and go right on back to Reagan’s amnesty. Then outsource the prisons to 3rd world countries and give the criminals a one way ticket. Most of the people affected by these deportations would be well below average.

    3) Do away with welfare and give people a massive tax break for children. If people got 25% reduction on their taxes for every kid then poor people would have no incentive and rich people would.

    4) Reinstate anti miscegenation laws with a twist. Create several homogeneous groups as well as a heterogeneous group. Anyone is free to marry anyone they like. But if someone is mixed or marries someone who is they are automatically transferred to the heterogeneous group.

    5) Launch a program to study eugenics and recommend additional policies.

  74. @Fred,
    I rescind the snark from my original reply to you on this subject; I was just semi-seriously jousting along the lines of our earlier discussions on this topic, but I see you’ve given this real thought and are serious…… re. your policies, i have a couple of questions: how, politically, would it be possible to outsource prison populations? And re. no. 4, doesn’t such a reality already exist; i.e., people’s actions socially automatically make them part of a heterogeneous or homogeneous group?

  75. nikcrit-

    The feasibility of deporting a criminal would probably depend on what kind of crime they had committed. A burglar or car thief probably wouldn’t happen. But I think most people would probably go for deporting a pedophile, rapist, or murderer.

    Regarding #4, that’s the same thing I thought when I was writing it. I posted it because I think there’s something there. But it’s not well-developed because I’d never thought about it before John asked.

  76. “To the extent that outbreeding lessens “inbreeding depression” it has short term benefits. But one need not go to another country to lessen “inbreeding depression”. One could do that by marrying someone from 50 miles away.”

    A quick post before work …

    OK, I admit I’m out of my league in this discussion … but that has never stopped me. 🙂

    I was reading this wiki article on race and genetics and trying to learn about genetic clustering. Supposedly “Africans are more genetically diverse than the inhabitants of the rest of the world combined.”

    “Africans are more genetically diverse than the inhabitants of the rest of the world combined, according to a sweeping study that carried researchers into remote regions to sample the bloodlines of more than 100 distinct populations.

    […]

    Although the study’s main focus was on Africa, Tishkoff and her colleagues studied DNA markers from around the planet, identifying 14 “ancestral clusters” for all of humanity. Nine of those clusters are in Africa. “You’re seeing more diversity in one continent than across the globe,” Tishkoff said.”

    I think I am just beginning to understand these concepts … the concept of inbreeding, outbreeding, depression and genes functioning best in their own “cluster” groups.

    My question also to was going to be … given that most people who marry and want to raise a family want healthy and happy offspring, and want their children to have healthy and happy offspring, what is the answer?

    “Cluster group” does not necessarily mean same ethnicity, same phenotype, same “race” … and isn’t there “cross-over” in any cluster group? That is why I have problems with your Nos. 4 and (half) of five. You cannot dictate to a free human being who to love. You take away something precious when you make laws like that. There are pregnant women who are warned that their child will have Downs Syndrome, and they do not abort and have normal kids. You just never know who you are giving birth to …

    “Do you think Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hui Cho or Chai Vang’s parents weren’t loving and supportive? It wouldn’t have made any difference if they had been adopted by Mother Theresa or Idi Amin. They were just batshit crazy.”

    I think these kid’s parents were definitely less than they should have been … either weren’t involved enough in a healthy way with their kids at the git-go, or maybe too involved, smothering them. They may have had the “batshit” gene (the possibility of ill health) but nurture I believe can play a strong role if the genes manifest or not. That is my gut feeling …

  77. Indeed, they are sensible proposals, although I’d be curious to see how #4 would be enacted.

    Fred, I am well aware of inbreeding in Pakistan, however, I have not heard of such a thing in Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan. I may be wrong.

    And I do think the people of Central Asia are hybrids, although the miscegenation no doubt happened over a millenium ago. If you look at pictures of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, and Uighurs, you will see people with mongoloid features mixed with some Caucasoid features, like brown-reddish hair rather than blue-black. Occasionally you will see an individual from these ethnicities that could pass as a European. And historically, Caucasoid tribes used to live in Central Asia, such as the Scythians and the Tocharians. Historians are uncertain as to what happened to these tribes, but judging by the appearance of modern Central Asians, I think it is fairly obvious.

  78. I’m more fascinated by the reasons WHY some cultures choose close inbreeding, especially between 1st and 2nd cousins.

    I was under the impression that inbreeding in Muslim countries is due to the ever-increasing size of marriage dowries that must be paid. Marrying within the family keeps the limited family wealth “in-house” in stagnant societies with little mobility for women.

    Thank God that the West prefers the practice of giving an expensive ring as a financial investment instead, LOL. But I think that wedding ring practice was invented by the ancient Egyptians.

  79. The ‘Central Asian’ region you guys are referring to made me think of this obscure-but-intriguing documentary I reviewed for the paper about ten years ago, titled ‘Ghengis Blues.” The subject, bluesman paul pena, is of Cape Verdean ancestry, but becomes a practitioner of a central Asian art of Tuvan throat singing, in which the vocalists develop a motorized hum into blues phrasings; to me, it sounds like a melodic form of those sounds that come from someone with decaying vocal chords who has to use a motorized device to amp up his or her voice.
    Anyhow, take a look? i remember when i had to watch this flick, wondering: what are these peoples background? They weren’t white, but they weren’t quite Asian either imho.

    ps—– also, if you get a chance, google video’tuvan throat singing’ and check out how weird that sound can be; it’s actually sorta interersting.

  80. p.s.—–
    Now that I think about it, perhaps Sagat may find interest in Pena and his music —– as he’s an Asian (or part Asian) who specializes in a form of folk music which originated in the American south.
    Btw, Pena, oddly enough, is the writer of the blues-rock song, “Jet Airliner,” which Steve Miller made into a hit during the ’80s. Who knew?

  81. pps——

    Sagat: I neglected to put a ” 🙂 ” after that remark about you perhaps finding interest in Pena —— my oversight: 😦

  82. John-

    There is currently no way to know whether central asians are the result of hybrid or cline. From the abstract on Genetic Landscape of Eurasia and “Admixture” in Uyghurs

    We also note that, for populations in the middle of a clinal distribution, STRUCTURE cannot readily distinguish recent admixture from a historical cline established by an expanding population as in the original spread of modern humans out of Africa and across Eurasia.

    Regarding #4, I’m open to suggestions.

    ============================

    Olive writes, “given that most people who marry and want to raise a family want healthy and happy offspring, and want their children to have healthy and happy offspring, what is the answer?

    See recommendations 1 to 5 in previous comment.

    Speaking of which, you objected to item 4 on the grounds that one cannot “dictate to a free human being who to love” after I specifically said “Anyone is free to marry anyone they like.” Though I must point out that given the divorce rate, “love” as a selection criteria doesn’t have a very good track record. Clearly, “love” isn’t the magic ingredient for success and happiness in marriage.

    You similarly objected to “(half) of five” which was nothing more than a recommendation to “Launch a program to study eugenics and recommend additional policies.” Is it possible you simply object to eugenics? And, if so, why?

    “Cluster group” does not necessarily mean same ethnicity, same phenotype, same “race” … and isn’t there “cross-over” in any cluster group?

    Actually, it’s pretty close. Cavalli Sforza pioneered population genetics. He is the world’s foremost authority on population genetics. This is the cover of one of his most recent books The History and Geography of Human Genes.

    http://tinyurl.com/inkcloud

    There are pregnant women who are warned that their child will have Downs Syndrome, and they do not abort and have normal kids.

    Those tests are very accurate. But if someone wants to play the lottery then I guess that’s their decision.

  83. @fred

    “Though I must point out that given the divorce rate, “love” as a selection criteria doesn’t have a very good track record. Clearly, “love” isn’t the magic ingredient for success and happiness in marriage.”

    Well … I suppose I agree. My grandparents selected my aunt’s husband and she married him at 17. They were both happy their whole married life. But they were both very giving people, and did not have ridiculous selfish expectations of married life and of each other.

    So you are saying that the “cluster groups” are pretty close. But I did read that within some long established ethnicities, there are different cluster groups. I will read Cavalli Sforza’s book.

    Reinstate the miscegenation laws with a twist? By cluster group and sub-cluster group? And who would keep track? The government? No thank you! That’s also why I object to half of 5. The “policies” half. I don’t want anyone “keeping track” of me.

    I don’t know how I feel about eugenics. I don’t have anything against studying and research, but … creating policies and classifying people with their names in a database I have problems with. I wouldn’t want to live in a country like that.

    Olive

  84. fred,
    Have you read The Journey of Man by Spencer Wells? What do you think of that book?
    Olive

  85. The Ashkenazi have perhaps the highest IQ rate in the world, and yet they are plagued with genetic illnesses. So maybe … there is a kind of trade-off between inbreeding and outbreeding.

  86. This is a fascinating discussion being had here. Sorry, for the absence, but I was stricken with some illness that I can only figure my kids had brought home from school. I’ve just now had the energy to read through all these comments.

    Fred,

    Thanks for that very long explanation about inbreeding and outbreeding. These are things I’ve read in the past, but it gave me a good refresher on the subject and some food for thought.

    I should be back to posting tomorrow.

  87. The Ashkenazi have perhaps the highest IQ rate in the world, and yet they are plagued with genetic illnesses. So maybe … there is a kind of trade-off between inbreeding and outbreeding. – Olive

    I have often wondered if there are non-genetic tradeoffs as well. Much is made of the effect that bacteria and parasite burdens have on third world IQs, but I’ve also heard that a lack of exposure to dirt increases the child’s allergies later in life.

    I.e., I wonder if exposure to low-level pathogens protects you against developing allergies (since your body learns to tell the difference between what you have to fight off and what you can let pass through), while leaving your mind vulnerable (since some of the things you encounter can’t easily be fought off without diverting resources from brain development).

    Just a hypothesis.

  88. And who would keep track? The government? No thank you!

    The government already keeps track.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws

    And there are a hundred groups tracking you, too. And not just government but insurance companies, financial institution and even your ISP. Unless I’m mistaken, they’re required to maintain records of your online activity. And if that’s not enough you fill out a census every 10 years and can go to jail for providing false information. So they’re not that far off from doing what I was talking about. Though I’d probably prefer a private foundation handle it. Sort of like the Souix Nation and Cherokee Nation have a tribal registry. Though I must admit Euro Nation doesn’t sound very nice. Say it 5 times as fast as you can. That just ain’t right.

    Re: Ashkenazi IQ & diseases are apparently linked.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03gene.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

  89. Olive-

    Haven’t read the Journey of Man but I watched the documentary on Youtube a while back. I don’t know how similar it is to the book but I found it mildly interesting. I only vaguely remember it. Did you have something specific in mind?

  90. The Ashkenazi have perhaps the highest IQ rate in the world, and yet they are plagued with genetic illnesses. So maybe … there is a kind of trade-off between inbreeding and outbreeding. – Olive

    Weren’t Dylan Harris and Eric Klebold from Ashkenazi families?

  91. Nikcrit,

    Thanks for that video of Paul Pena and the Ghengis Blues. I’ve heard Paul Pena before and Tuvan throat singing, but never that combination. I thought it was a brilliant mix of two styles. I love to hear different music from around the world come together like that and mesh so well. If only diversity was always so harmonious. 🙂

    It reminded me of this fusion of bluegrass and traditional Chinese music that I heard a few years ago.

  92. Camlost-

    I researched Columbine recently because it came up on another blog. There is no mention of Eric Harris’ religion anywhere so I’m assuming his family just wasn’t religious. Dylan Klebold’s mother was jewish and father was lutheran. Apparently, they attended a lutheran church occasionally and did all the jewish stuff at home. Here’s a couple of articles about it. As you can imagine, no one is eager to claim the little bastards.

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0599/klebold1.asp

    http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/10724/dylan-klebold-led-life-of-religious-contradictions/

  93. I’m not sure how to draw the line on mixed races. By the old definition of race I would be mixed race for having an anglo mother and a polish father. My mother told me to tell my classmates that my last name was german because she thought I would be ridiculed for being partly polish. As it happened, this was the late 90s so nobody cared that my surname was odd. But it tells us how far that race mixing has been accepted that there was a time not too far back that even intra-white mixed marriages concerned people. So when drawing the line for race mixing, we have to be careful that we are making an argument based on iq and ability rather than a tribalistic justification that has no logical end point.

  94. @Sagat:
    re. the pena vids—– don’t mention it, as it’s a pleasure of mine, too, to pass along odd, interesting and/or intriguing bits of musical geography. my only regret was that I got sort of caught up in the connection during that moment, and later felt i sort-of derailed or interrupted to genetic-interbreeding discussion, which made me regretful as that was not my intent. (and the discussion does seem to be rather intriguing, yet, as i’vfe noted before during certain racial-genetic discussions, this one and other sometime make me feel like a kid and the grown-ups dinner table; i mean, how did these young squirts like john mcneill accumulate all that detailed info about genetics, anthropology and civilizational history, etc.? 🙂
    Sheet, this humanties grad-student major still occasionally has problems with the metric system!

  95. “Did you have something specific in mind?”

    @fred,

    No, I just thought it was fascinating the way he traced the homo sapien male Y chromosome out of Africa and around the world. Just as I find this idea of “cluster groups” of genes fascinating.

    I guess it would be interesting to see more research on what happens in humans beings when two unlike cluster groups combine, to actually document and track the offspring and their mates, and then their offspring, and observe what happens. Is it more tragic than all those Ashkenazi or Pakastani illnesses? I suppose dying off when you are a child is better(?) than hanging around sick all your life, being a drain on society and reproducing more of the same, though. Not everyone with genetic disease will have a mind and spirit like Stephen Hawking (or is his a genetic disease? I don’t think we know yet …)

    America is becoming very mixed, so maybe when they get all our names and cluster groups in the database, they can seriously study the homogeneous groups and the heterogeneous human group, and track the affects of the inbreeding and outbreeding. I suppose I’ll let them track me for the good of the future of mankind, since they’re tracking everything else.

    But it seems to me that, when it comes to human beings and Mother Nature, the more you think you may know the facts of something, the more She will surprize you. One thing affects another thing, affects something else, and then something jumps in to compensate. And then, when you think you’ve got everything right … She blindsides you with a sucker punch. I think the only thing we have going for us is … that the human brain IS very complicated and who knows how it affects us, we’ve only begun to study it and discover things, and what the brain is capable of …

    So forget about the cluster groups and the database … (I think we would make good progress just implementing suggestions 1, 2 and 3, though …)

    One thing for sure, if “global warming” is for real, the very “white skinned” homogeneous group may become extinct at some point unless those “skin gene clusters” can evolve some protective chemicals against the sun’s rays. Either that, or a) find the magic pill for skin-cancer; b) migrate north or c) take your chances with outbreeding.

  96. Fred, thanks for the link

    @Chris

    “we have to be careful that we are making an argument based on iq and ability rather than a tribalistic justification that has no logical end point.”

    I disagree with this completely. Sense of tribe and identity is a perfectly valid reason to be against mixing. If you feel pride in your tribe and identity, you’ll want to preserve it. By your argument, I should be fine with mixing with Asians, even though I know that if all Europeans did that, then there would not be any more Europeans. Sure my offspring may be smarter due to higher East Asian IQ, but to me, the sacrifice in my race’s existence is not worth the cost.

  97. Olive-

    I’m biased in favor of reality and my own self interest. But I think you have a bias as well. Will you share it with me?

  98. Fred,

    “I’m biased in favor of reality and my own self interest. But I think you have a bias as well. Will you share it with me?”

    I’m not sure what you want me to “share” …

    I also am biased in favor of truth and I seek it. Mother Nature is truth, and we uncover her truths little by little … each truth adds to the puzzle as we contemplate its ramifications. And you are right, She cuts like a bitch. Truth is also a double-edged sword, slaying some and setting others free. All depends on where you’re standing.

    And if I do not truly love myself first, how can I be a whole, honest human being? And how can I have an honest care for my fellow human beings and want to make this world a better place if I do not love myself first? Everything we do in life is because of self-interest. So if you’re asking if I am biased in favor of my own self interest, of course I am … every human being is and should be, unless corrupted by some stupid religion to become “self-less” and putting others first to their own and others’ destruction … And you can go the other way … too much of the wrong kind of “self-interest” or “self-love” is also destructive to self and others. Everything comes back to bite you in the ass.

    Is that what you were asking, or are you asking something else?

    Olive

  99. Olive-

    I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said really. You certainly sound intelligent and reasonable. But some of your comments sounded like you were choosing your words carefully. And you posted the melungeon link. I was just wondering if that was influencing some of your opinions. I’m not knocking melungeons. I’ve never met one that I know of. Though I think there is another guy who comments occasionally who might be part melungeon.

  100. Fred,

    That other guy is me. With deep, deep roots in Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and the Carolinas, I have Melungeon ancestry on both my parents’ sides. But I could never think of myself as anything other than white as I also claim English, Scots-Irish, German, French, Dutch, and even Swedish ancestry. I’m a true American mutt and even descend from one of the Mayflower passengers, James Chilton.

  101. essbro-

    Yeah, you were who I was talking about but was trying to show some discretion. I figured if you wanted to say so you would. To be honest, I’d only heard of melungeons in the last couple of years and I’m still not sure what it is.

  102. @fred,

    I posted the Melungeon link because Sagat wrote at the end of his post “Would society suffer if all Blacks were quadroons and octaroons? Or a better question might be, would our society survive if all Whites were quadroons and octaroons?” I was pointing out that … there are people of mixed race who identify as Caucasian and identify more with American “White” culture than American “Black” … the Melungeons are one group I thought of.

    I do try to choose my words carefully when I am writing about a subject I know little about (human genetics) and have held general beliefs that I thought were accurate but had no idea of the depth of the subject that I held opinions about … I want to make sure I understand what I’m reading and comment on it as accurately as I can.

    Olive

  103. Essbro wrote,
    “…..I have Melungeon ancestry on both my parents’ sides…..”

    Ah-HA! So, THAT explains the ‘bro in Essbro, huh? 🙂

  104. “I was pointing out that … there are people of mixed race who identify as Caucasian and identify more with American “White” culture than American “Black”

    What is the genetic composition of melungeons? How much of their genes are European in origin in contrast to African and Native American?

    If Locklear is an example of a melungeon, then it doesn’t surprise me that they would see themselves as white.

  105. Olive
    “pure melungeon”? Isn’t that an oxymoron or something? 🙂

    Just some more thoughts … I think if “they” keep a database, they should do it by IQ … I am wondering if high IQ parents produce high IQ children on a consistent basis … (I’m googling as we speak …) so if high IQ people mated and were rewarded for mating, regardless of race or cluster group, and produced high IQ children, at least people with high brain capacity would be being produced. Whether they were wise or decent human beings would be another matter to worry about.

    And I think that is the crux of the matter. I don’t know if I feel mating with someone of a different “cluster group” or “race” is necessarily “bad” for humans, although there is much food for thought about the theoretical biological problems of inbreeding and outbreeding depression, and the short-term and long-term difficulties this would pose for societies. That being said, I believe people who want to preserve their “race,” ethnicity and culture should be able to do so. They could be preserving something useful and precious for all humanity, i.e. Ashkenazi intelligence, etc.

    IQ doesn’t seem to be set in stone. It is “racial” only in the sense that … environment affects our biology. From my various readings, supposedly in Africa, a person didn’t have to do much to pass on genes and prosper. Food was abundant without much effort, and to combat the abundant deadly bugs, animals, etc, all you had to do was reproduce copiously. A matriarchal-centered society. When homo sapien moved north, the harsher, colder, more unfriendly environment produced harsher, colder, calculating thinkers in order to survive. A patriarchal-centered society. Simplistic description, I know, but it sums up my readings and understanding.

    I feel that more important are the values people hold. I want to associate and mate with people that hold precious what I hold precious. Intelligence is important, but there are other attributes which attract me. And there are certain ethnicities I would generally avoid because I don’t like what I observe about their culture. And again, sometimes it all boils down to the individual … there are outliers everywhere.

    People freak out about eugenics because they think of Hitler and the South’s “one drop rule,” which American Whites used to their power advantage at one time and now some American Blacks do it, etc. I don’t think you can study human biology and NOT ponder eugenics, a way to make us better and healthier. Knowing truth about ourselves is important. But once we start discovering truths, it’s what we do with them that engenders fears and opposition in some.

    On second thought, skip that IQ database … “they” usually kill off the most intelligent people after the coup …

    Olive

  106. “People freak out about eugenics because they think of Hitler and the South’s “one drop rule,” which American Whites used to their power advantage at one time and now some American Blacks do it, etc. ”

    yes, this is very true imho; i mean, a year ago, i had the usual half-knowledge, vague-assocation-level type awareness of eugenics; upon coming to GW and posting, it was chilling to see people referring to eugenics in such a causual way —— until i got the full breadth of their postions and saw that most of them were using the term in the expansive, scientific way and not just in the way I and many others vaguely associated it with, which is this: say the word ‘eugenics,’ and the uninitiated intuitive subconscious summons immages of 1) William Shockley; and 2) the Nazis ——- that’s not really ‘fair’ but that is the widely held misconception, and fair or not, it’s up to those who use the term responsibly to rectify its image.

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  108. As far as pure Melungeons go, they are pretty well a group no longer in existence as most people with that ancestry have no clue of it. The term itself is somewhat ambiguous.

    PBS had an interesting documentary a few years ago in which they stressed the Turkish heritage and cited Elvis Presley and Abraham Lincoln as having significant Melungeon ancestry.

    There’s likely some Turkish in their somewhere but the theory of their origins that I ascribe to is primarily Portugese. The reason for this is because while most of the Melungeon surnames are fairly common English names (Davis, Evans and Hall in my lineage) a few, like Locklear, are quite unusual. Another unusual name that’s in my lineage is Carrico. A Carrico descendant tried to find the origin of the name and discovered that the only country where that name is at all common is Portugal. There’s a theory that the Lost Colony of Roanoke, which was a group of Portugese immigrants that were dropped off at Roanoke Island off the coast of North Carolina in the 1590s, I believe. There were a number of black slaves with the group of about 150 people. When the ship returned 3 years later to check on them, they found their settlement abandoned and no trace of the group remained except some cryptic carvings on a tree.

    North America was in the midst of an 80 year drought that also impacted the Pilgrims 20+ years later in Massachusetts and conditions were so harsh that the Roanoke group made their way to the mainland of North Carolina and began to move inland and inter-married with the native Indians. A couple of hundred years go by and other “lighter” Europeans started inhabiting the area and found a dark-skinned group of people, many with bright blue eyes, were already there who spoke English. When asked of their origins, this group said they were Black Irish or “Portyghee”. They were a bit secretive so they wouldn’t be discriminated against by these later arrivals. They even tried to avoid contact with the new arrivals by settling as deep into Appalachia as possible. But eventually, they intermarried with the later arrivals and became so dilluted that their identities were largely unknown. You can still see it among some “hillbillys” if you’re looking for it.

    This is just 1 theory about the Melungeons. I hope it helps, Fred and Olive.

  109. “That being said, I believe people who want to preserve their “race,” ethnicity and culture should be able to do so.”

    Glad to hear it, another civic nationalist tolerating ethnonationalism. I generally find discussions with civic nationalists hair-ripping, because we can’t agree with each other, nor find a compromise that would work for both camps.

    The majority demand that I give up my ideas or accept the fact that they are impossible to make relevant in the 21st Century, and just support generic right-wing causes that will help unify the country, a la Glenn Beck’s recent black-love fest.

    It’s my pleasure to meet a reasonable person such as yourself. 🙂

  110. Glad to hear it, another civic nationalist tolerating ethnonationalism. – John McNeill

    Let’s not stop there. Let’s keep thinking of way that ethno- and civic nationalists can find common ground. A single nation may not be able to fully accommodate both, but a multinational state can.

  111. essbro-

    I’ve read the Roanoke hypothesis. But Roanoke was strictly an English colony. With so many myths and rumours flying around and so little hard evidence I’d have to go with what little hard evidence there is. That’s why I linked to the DNA analysis.

    As the geneticist makes clear there wasn’t anything conclusive on Portuguese one way or the other. But the Carrico argument is compelling. I once knew a woman named Carrico. And given the region it’s much more likely her husband had melungeon ancestry than was a recent immigrant.

    ===============

    Olive-

    Some of your points are reasonable. Others remind of Lucetta from The Two Gentlemen of Verona when she says, “I have no other but a woman’s reason: I think him so, because I think him so.”

  112. “Let’s not stop there. Let’s keep thinking of way that ethno- and civic nationalists can find common ground. A single nation may not be able to fully accommodate both, but a multinational state can.”

    I am willing to explore this. In many ways, we’ll have to since an ethnostate is very unlikely in the near future.

    I am willing to negotiate. Are any other civics game for this?

    Also, I remember you told me on RebelliousVanilla’s blog that you were crafting a hypothetical constitution that would have a Union of autonomous states (including ethnostates). Did you make any progress on that? Can you give us a general summary of your vision?

  113. @fred,

    “Others remind of Lucetta from The Two Gentlemen of Verona when she says, ‘I have no other but a woman’s reason: I think him so, because I think him so.’”

    Well, I am a woman … ’nuff said! 🙂

  114. “My children are half Asian, but I strongly encourage them to feel proud of both their Thai and White heritage. ”

    How does ethnicity work with multiracial right-thinking people? Maybe future right wing multiracial polyethnics with try to fight bioliberalism and preserve the human race from transhumanism.
    Which would put them on the same page with liberal-racial-egalitarians.

    http://oxford.academia.edu/documents/0011/1242/Bioconservatism__Bioliberalism__and_Repugnance.pdf

  115. “Maybe future right wing multiracial polyethnics with try to fight bioliberalism and preserve the human race for transhumanism.”

    I don’t think polyethnics are necessarily or implicitly moving toward ‘transhumanism’; their folklore and cultural mythos is merely duality—- including both the conflict and complexity and any condition coming from it; there’s no consensual drift toward ‘transhumanism’ or any particular ‘resolve,’ etc.

    —– or maybe not, if i didn’t quite follow what you were getrting at. part ….f me couldn’t be sure whether or not you were being facetious; were you?

  116. “—– ….f me couldn’t be sure whether or not you were being facetious; were you?”

    I was being somewhat facetious, but not completely.

    First, I meant “Maybe future right wing multiracial polyethnics with try to fight bioliberalism and preserve the human race FROM transhumanism”

    Sagat was talking about ethnoracial conservationism. That doesn’t seem to be a liberal-left concern — they’re focused on post-ethnoracial progressivism –but rather it seems to be more of a traditional-right concern, when not, as in Sagat’s case, an aesthetic anthropological concern. Now ‘traditional’ usually means living according to a traditional pattern and ‘right’ usually means group focused. Traditional-rightists are concerned with conserving their patterns of life and group.

    That would be the Khoisan peoples conserving the Khoisan peoples and ways.

    So I was asking what people and ways could a CaucThiaKhoisan conserve. I was suggesting that they would have to move to the greatest common denominator and identify as generic humans and then, they could try to conserve humans from gene-mixing in the sense of transhumanism.

    Your reply was that they could have many peoples and ways to work with.

    I guess the question would be: to what extent does multiracialism lead to postracialism? (Whereby ‘race’ I mean ancestry or having a sense of historic identity — ie rootedness.)

  117. “First, I meant “Maybe future right wing multiracial polyethnics with try to fight bioliberalism and preserve the human race FROM transhumanism”

    ok, i see from your initial correction that you pointed this out. but, how would such a posit place ‘polyethnics’ in the ‘liberal-racial-egalitarian’ camp? (i would think the urge to maintain ethnoracial identity, even if multi-sourced in a single being, would be more a trad-right-conservative impulse than liberal-egalitarian one, right?)

    So, no, I don’t think multiracialism implicitly points toward ‘postracialism’ —— though i guess i could understand the concern (from both monoethnics and not) that it might. multiracials are possibly just more vulnerable to the false charms of ‘postracialism’ and other (misguided?) ideals because they’re more lacking and undeveloped, i.e. in the early stages o,) having a tradition of cultural folklore and mythology to protect and enrich them as a group with preservable ethnic traditions.

  118. Chuck,

    I think that you have different ideas about ethnicity that might lead you to misunderstand a multi-racial person’s place in the world. When I teach my children to feel proud of their Thai heritage, I don’t try to make them consider themselves Thai. They are Americans first. Since they’re hapas, I feel it’s important for their mental well being to appreciate their background. It’s also important for family cohesion that they have respect for their father’s ethnicity.

    My ideas about racial preservation center mainly around those groups that face genetic extinction. While I’m not opposed to racial mixing, I don’t believe in the liberal fantasy of a global mixed race. I think that history has shown that the different strands of humanity will continue to exist, though with just higher percentages of overlap than in the past.

  119. “What if there never were any social taboos against miscegenation and Blacks had been completely absorbed into the larger White gene pool? Wouldn’t that have prevented many of the social problems that America faced during the past century? Or would it have robbed America of the Black experience that has been a major part of shaping this country’s history? Just imagine a nation that was mostly White and instead of a Black minority there were Whites that were partially Black that looked like Rashida Jones”

    The taboos weren’t just against intermarriage with Blacks. Generally, they were against exogamy. As such, in California, they applied to Asians also. The point was to maintain a white-European identity.

    Maybe to understand the complexity of the issue, we could ask the parallel question: How would things have been if the Manchu did not have a social taboo against miscegenation? — for one, you would not have had the Qing dynasty:

    “The Qing were very successful as foreign rulers in China. They maintained their domination of the Chinese by preserving their own identity. They spent their summers in their homeland of Manchuria, which was closed to the Chinese. They banned intermarriage among the Chinese, continued to speak their own language and did not make their documents available to the Chinese. They retained military strength over the Chinese by separating the duties of the Chinese troops and of the Manchu troops. The Chinese were not trained as a striking force. They also had a unique way of keeping the Mongols away. They first immobilized and divided the Mongols under a similar fashion as the Ming had done. However, they then supported the Yellow Lamaist sect of Tibetan Buddhism, which was a popular religion of the Mongols, and focused their attention on Lhasa, as a center of worship.

    The Qing instituted changes in the dress of the Chinese. They required the Chinese men to shave their heads and wear queues. They also required them to wear Manchu clothes rather than the clothing style of the Ming Dynasty. The Qing did not require the Chinese women to change their dress, yet they did forbid them to bind their feet. This proved impossible to enforce and in 1668 A.D. the ruling was withdrawn. A custom the Qing did not attempt to change, was the preference for agriculture over trade. The Qing favored an isolationist policy, which proved fatal. The lack of trade hurt China economically.”

    They wouldn’t have been able to maintain hegemony but China might have become non-isolationist, depending on who took over leadership.

    My point here is that historic taboos against exogamy had a function. In the case of the US, they helped maintain a European identity. To the extent that a European identity was historically useful to the development of the US, then those taboos were useful — of course, the apparent benefits of a system can change with time. My general take is that that identity was formative. Would it have been better if it never was? Well, you wouldn’t have had the same America.

    More generally, todays ethnocultural identities along with religions are like luxuries — I think it’s a mistake to assume that they had equal utility 200 years ago.

  120. “I think that history has shown that the different strands of humanity will continue to exist, though with just higher percentages of overlap than in the past.”

    Sagat, what aspects of history make you think that way?

  121. Sagat, what aspects of history make you think that way?

    Well, it’s more genetics that makes me feel that way. Looking at population clusters throughout the world, for the most part, different regions have remained stable genetically. Different regions of Europe, for example, have populations that are mostly the same as ancient populations, except maybe with minor inputs from migrations and war. While some groups have disappeared or been absorbed, most of the groups that exist today existed thousands of years ago. Some groups may shrink, while others grow in size, but I don’t see any signs of impending obliteration of any major races of humanity.

    I know that you’re concerned with the future of White people and your feelings are valid, but I think you should look at the positive side of the things. Europeans are probably the most flexible and adaptable people. Whatever decline Whites may see in the short term, they can easily make up in the long term. If some calamity were to happen that destroyed the global economy, who do you think would manage to maintain their civilizations?

  122. Remember. A big reason why groups existing today existed long ago is because those of long ago weren’t immersed and brainwashed in the “tolerance” of today.

    Political Correctness and tolerance may be the end of many an ethnicity and even a few races of humanity much sooner than before.

    I think it’s later than ya think, Sagat.

  123. Sagat, at first I wanted to go through my standard list of gloom and doom reasons why the white race is doomed, etc etc. But I really appreciate your optimism and presenting a positive picture that isn’t “grrrrr the white race is superior and is gonna kick out these darkies, yee-haw!”. I’m really grateful for the outside perspective that you and other commentators on this fine blog provide. Thank you. 🙂

  124. What is the difference between black and white? Is it 180 or 360 degrees?
    Maybe that is why Blacks hate themselves and their color.
    Last remark!! Black people instingtively know that the Whiteman is his superior,and he hates him for that.
    Only with the White man out of excistance will the Blacks get rid of that inferior feeling.
    The Blacks will forever try to run down and murder whites.
    I live where this happens every day.

  125. Arnie,

    I know that you’re from South Africa, so I’m sure you have plenty of experience to support your feelings on the matter, but I think some of your ideas are misplaced. African Blacks don’t hate themselves or their color. They don’t kill and eat albinos and pygmies because of self hatred; they do so because they’re a terribly simple and primitive people. If there were no Whites in Africa, they’d simply murder the Indians or the Arabs or the Chinese. And if no outsiders were present, they’d just murder each other as they already do. It has less to do with feelings of inferiority than it does the fact that they have low impulse control and little ability to understand the consequences of their actions.

  126. I hear (read) what you are saying Sagat. Plse. expl. then why they constantly try to get themselves white. Lotions and potions ie. Some of them got skin cancer because of this effort. They pull and weave their hair in every conceivable manner to get it straight.
    The natural standard of living and looks of the Whiteman is their holy grail. They do not try to live like Eskimos or asians or whatever.
    The Blacks are mostly compared to Whites in just about everything. Blacks are mostly involved wherever discrim. is involved. Almost never with the “others”
    Why is this?

  127. Arnie,

    Those are good questions you’ve asked and I have a lot to say about those issues. Instead of responding here, I’ll write a new post about it to bring others into the discussion.

  128. Sagat writes, It has less to do with feelings of inferiority than it does the fact that they have low impulse control and little ability to understand the consequences of their actions.

    That’s everyone’s problem. Just to different degrees.

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  130. Just read this post, thanks for putting it up, Sagat. Very, very enlightening wrt your own kids and how they’re individually treated, and how they both approach things.

    What struck me most was in how your daughter was treated by Blacks, especially the boys, versus how your son was treated by Blacks, though you didn’t say whether he had trouble with the girls. If it is as I suspect, it seems that your daughter stands to gain from being an admixture of White and Asian, while your son stands to be hampered by it in the SMP as he ages into maturity. Very, very interesting, and also gives me an insight into why you do what you do. Thanks!

    O.

  131. Obsidian,

    I’m glad that you had interest in this. I usually avoid writing about my children, because I know that sooner or later someone will attack me for their mixed race status and I can’t really stomach that. I can brush off a lot of things, but not insults towards my children.

  132. this whole article smacks of “White people are ok, they are smart. Asians are ok, look at Japan, its a first world metropolis…Black people…UgH!”

    Black Pride. Black Power. Black President. That is my response. We own this nation now, you crackers run away – white flight. White women have black babies…we own you.

  133. Black Pride. Black Power. Black President. That is my response.

    Wow, some more of that exemplary black intelligence on display!

    So let me get this straight, one mullato/halfrican, whitewashed president who is a puppet of the Israel lobby, Wall Street, and other pressure groups is evidence that you guys own us now?

    And besides, weren’t people like you saying “Obama isn’t black enough” during the days before he actually emerged as a candidate with the potential to win?

    Don’t worry, 2012 is approaching, and short of an economic miracle, Obama’s on the way out.

  134. Black Pride. Black Power. Black President. That is my response. We own this nation now, you crackers run away – white flight. White women have black babies…we own you.

    Devon,

    Thanks for your hilarious display of Black entitlement mentality. Stuff Black People Don’t Like always talks about “Black Run America” and we can see that you’ve enthusiastically embraced that idea. Truth is, Black people don’t own much of anything. A tiny percentage of businesses are Black owned and the average savings of Black individuals is five dollars. Only in your little skull does being a parasite to society equal owning White people.

  135. Black Pride. Black Power. Black President. That is my response. We own this nation now, you crackers run away – white flight. White women have black babies…we own you.

    Obama’s election is causing a black revolution.

    Young brothas everywhere are pulling up their pants and deciding to live under the same roof as their children !!

  136. @Devon
    I must say your comment makes me feel so ashame as a black man.How could you even insinuate the black man owns America jsut because Uncle Barack is in the White house.Now i give you a food for thought,”does the black man own Africa?”Most definitely not.Dont make the caucasians think we are ignorant people.Cause we know better.Yes ofcourse its our land ,but talking of ownership,i wont call a shirt “my shirt’ just because its in my locker.The real user is the dude who wears that shirt.Any African nation that wont open its oil reserves and another mineral deposits to the exploitation of the Americans,British,French,etc etc will be labelled as a terrorist nation.But when a dictator sits on the throne in an African country with rich oil reserves and opens up the gates for our “white” friends they are suddenly smiled upon ,eyes are closed to all violation of human rights in such countries.The problem isnt even from them”whites”,its from our brothers in Africa.Just imagine if we could have 4 Robert Mogabes,4 Moammar Gadhafis,real pan Africanists . . . . yeah ofcourse who can say no to neocolonialism,and engage our western governments eye to eye,word for word,until a mutual beneficial agreement is reached.But no,our African leaders easily fall to the corruption,pressure and all neo colonial tactics of these western mineral mongers.How will we not be insulted on every single blog on the internet.Criticizing that same goose that lays the golden eggs.Its not really their fault.the least we can do is to believe in ourselves more than ever.Never submitting to the doctrines,hypothesis,ideologies,satanic ideas and believes that God created man unequal contrary to what the Holy Bible states.

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